Spare Fuel...

[TheBiscuits]

25 minutes ago, jeddlad said:

Different if you use red on the road.

Why? How?

 

If you are using red diesel for propulsion on the boat but declaring 100% domestic use, then how in any way is that different to putting it in a car or a van and still not paying the propulsion tax?

[Flyboy]

On 23/02/2020 at 17:38, robtheplod said:

Yes I thought that... what is the 'shelf life' of red diesel?    Change it every few months ok?

If you keep diesel in a full can it will have a much longer shelf life than in the boat tank.  The boat tank is vented to atmosphere which allows damp air in whereas in a sealed can this is not the case. I've kept diesel in sealed cans for up to 12 months and never had a problem with diesel bug.  It always looks the same as the day it went in the can.  It would be prudent cycle it every few months though.

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, Flyboy said:

If you keep diesel in a full can it will have a much longer shelf life than in the boat tank.  The boat tank is vented to atmosphere which allows damp air in whereas in a sealed can this is not the case. I've kept diesel in sealed cans for up to 12 months and never had a problem with diesel bug.  It always looks the same as the day it went in the can.  It would be prudent cycle it every few months though.

 

I'd go exactly the other way on this - a mate had diesel bug, so got his entire fuel system properly cleaned and sorted out, then got it again very shortly afterwards.  He was cursing the last boatyard he had filled up at, but I had filled up there too and my fuel system was perfectly clean.

 

A bit of investigation and it turns out that the source of his second (and probably his first!) diesel bug contamination was from his steel jerrycan.  He'd been told to keep his tank topped up to avoid condensation issues, but had a reservoir of bug living in his spare fuel can.

 

I prefer plastic drums for diesel - as you say you can see what's in them before you decant into your main tank.

[Flyboy]

4 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I'd go exactly the other way on this - a mate had diesel bug, so got his entire fuel system properly cleaned and sorted out, then got it again very shortly afterwards.  He was cursing the last boatyard he had filled up at, but I had filled up there too and my fuel system was perfectly clean.

 

A bit of investigation and it turns out that the source of his second (and probably his first!) diesel bug contamination was from his steel jerrycan.  He'd been told to keep his tank topped up to avoid condensation issues, but had a reservoir of bug living in his spare fuel can.

 

I prefer plastic drums for diesel - as you say you can see what's in them before you decant into your main tank.

 If you put fuel into a contaminated can you are asking for trouble.  I agree with you on the use of plastic cans, that's what I use.

[jeddlad]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Agreed, but admitting you are flaunting the law on a public forum ............… That's so sad.

 

Do you just choose which laws you will abide by and which you will ignore?

Are you one of those weird 'free man of the land' type ?

 

So, murdering someone is nothing to do with anyone else it is just between the Police and yourself.

Alan, I didn't realise you'd become the moral police.........

 

Stupid reply by you IMO,  I don't know why but I expected better from you .

 

[Momac]

More evidence of red diesel issues

https://www.fwi.co.uk/machinery/farm-maintenance/machinery-maintenance/red-diesel-the-problems-uncovered

 

[jeddlad]

6 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Why? How?

 

If you are using red diesel for propulsion on the boat but declaring 100% domestic use, then how in any way is that different to putting it in a car or a van and still not paying the propulsion tax?

Because unlike boating, the police and the department of transport are interested.

[TheBiscuits]

7 minutes ago, jeddlad said:

Because unlike boating, the police and the department of transport are interested.

Ok, great. 

 

You have confessed to tax fraud several times on this thread, and your justification for doing this is that the police can't be bothered looking out for you, but apparently that's OK in your head because you are not doing it on Tarmac, just on water.

 

I'm not necessarily objecting to the tax fraud - I just think boasting about doing so on the open public internet is pretty stupid!

[robtheplod]

Just revisiting this. I had a 10 litre plastic can but the spout was awful and it was difficult to pour from. Thinking about 20litre Jerry cans but just wanted to check can you get good/bad cans? Some mention having a liner to stop rust so thinking different quality ones about?  We have an Army Surplus nearby so maybe this would be better although much more expensive??

 

thanks!!

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Just revisiting this. I had a 10 litre plastic can but the spout was awful and it was difficult to pour from. Thinking about 20litre Jerry cans but just wanted to check can you get good/bad cans? Some mention having a liner to stop rust so thinking different quality ones about?  We have an Army Surplus nearby so maybe this would be better although much more expensive??

 

thanks!!

'Proper' jerry cans have a coating to stop corrosion - the last thing they would want to happen in the middle of a battle would be for the engine to get clogged up with a bit of rust.

 

Buy the real ones and buy once.

 

Nozzles are available the clip onto the Jerry can.

 

 

Jerry Can Funnel x | Fuel Pumps & Cans | Screwfix.com

 

ProPlus Spout Metal Flexible | Euro Car Parts

 

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[system 4-50]

Also available at MachineMart.

[blackrose]

On 23/02/2020 at 17:16, robtheplod said:

 Are there BSS issues with storing diesel onboard in Jerry cans or the like?

 

 

I know it's not as hazardous as petrol and I'm not sure what the BSS says, but personally I wouldn't store jerry cans of diesel in the engine space. I have a separate locker.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, system 4-50 said:

Also available at MachineMart.

 

But they are not military (proper) ones, almost every garage & toolstation, screwfix ebay etc etc etc. sells 'civilian' versions, 

The military ones are more robust (heavier) and have the internal surfaces coated with a petroleum resitant coating to stop rust.

[system 4-50]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But they are not military (proper) ones, almost every garage & toolstation, screwfix ebay etc etc etc. sells 'civilian' versions, 

The military ones are more robust (heavier) and have the internal surfaces coated with a petroleum resitant coating to stop rust.

where does it resite the rust to?

[blackrose]

I had one of those metal spouts that attaches to a jerry can, but even with the rubber gasket it leaked. It was actually less messy and polluting not to use it.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I know it's not as hazardous as petrol and I'm not sure what the BSS says, but personally I wouldn't store jerry cans of diesel in the engine space. I have a separate locker.

There are no regulations for domestic storage or transport of diesel below (I think 1000 litres, which is why my bowser is rated at 990 litres).

 

There are no specific legal requirements on how to store diesel or the quantity allowed either in workplaces or domestic premises..................It is not, from a health and safety point of view, a particularly hazardous substance within the meaning of the Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002 - its vapour flash point is too high. This means that its vapour will not ignite at normal room temperatures.

I can find no mention of storage requirements in the BSS but would agree with Blackrose that it is better kept in a cool locker.

[blackrose]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are no regulations for domestic storage or transport of diesel below (I think 1000 litres, which is why my bowser is rated at 990 litres).

 

There are no specific legal requirements on how to store diesel or the quantity allowed either in workplaces or domestic premises..................It is not, from a health and safety point of view, a particularly hazardous substance within the meaning of the Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002 - its vapour flash point is too high. This means that its vapour will not ignite at normal room temperatures.

 

 

Is a hot engine room at normal room temperatures?

 

Anyway, why is the BSS so strict on things like diesel fuel hoses and glass bowls on water/sediment traps? Seems like an inconsistency but I guess that's the BSS.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by blackrose

[robtheplod]

This is my local Army Surplus - says in the blurb about "Interior Rezol enamel lining prevents rust"

 

Jerry Can 20 Litre – Becketts (beckettsstore.com)

 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

So why is the BSS so strict on things like diesel fuel hoses and glass bowls on water/sediment traps? Seems like an inconsistency but I guess that's the BSS.

I suppose you could ask why 12v DC is so strictly controlled and mandatory regulations applied in the BSS, whilst pretty much all of the 230v AC stuff is just an advisory.

 

Mixing a steel hull, 230v and H2O is (I'd suggest) more life threatening than mixing a steel hull, 12v and H2O, but as we know its all about saving passers-by rather than boaters.

 

The mysteries and secrets of the BSS shall never be understood by mere mortals.

[Onewheeler]

You need a jiggle syphon rather than a spout for transferring from a can. Very easy to use and hard to spill more than a few drops.

 

We carry 200 L in cans on our boat on the mainland as it's very hard to find waterside filling points.

[bizzard]

You don't really need fancy spouts, Just hold the can flat, horizontallly and pour slowly so as not to glug and splash.

[LadyG]

On 23/02/2020 at 22:07, MartynG said:

Since red diesel became ultra low sulphur in 2010 and there is is ever increasing amounts of bio-diesel  content  I am not at all convinced the long term storage life of diesel is anything like what it might have been a decade ago.

I am going to speak to Hydra Fuel Additives.com on monday, they specialise in this sort of thing, I am concerned that

1) I might not get fresh fuel after this lockdown

2) I might not find a marina as I slowly cc at my own pace

 

My tank is a good 3/4 full now, and my containers are empty, and I know where I can fill them at 85ppl from a busy roadside garage, plus expecting a willing visitor next week.

The Hydra site has quite a bit of info on diesel, but just looking at the stuff,  there is no doubt it's not what it was years ago. 

The Hydra site discusses increasing the Cetane percentage, I translate this as getting more power and therefore efficiency from any diesel engine, I can't see it being anything other than a good thing.

They have several products which stabilise the diesel in storage, I'm assuming this means my fresh diesel will not deteriorate as fast. I'm a great believer in preventative maintenance, especially if I don't have to get my hands dirty, or even worse, pay someone to service things that I have neglected. 

THANKS to another forumite for puting me on to them.

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by LadyG

[dmr]

9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I am going to speak to Hydra Fuel Additives.com on monday, they specialise in this sort of thing, I am concerned that

1) I might not get fresh fuel after this lockdown

2) I might not find a marina as I slowly cc at my own pace

 

My tank is a good 3/4 full now, and my containers are empty, and I know where I can fill them at 85ppl from a busy roadside garage, plus expecting a willing visitor next week.

The Hydra site has quite a bit of info on diesel, but just looking at the stuff,  there is no doubt it's not what it was years ago. 

The Hydra site discusses increasing the Cetane percentage, I translate this as getting more power and therefore efficiency from any diesel engine, I can't see it being anything other than a good thing.

They have several products which stabilise the diesel in storage, I'm assuming this means my fresh diesel will not deteriorate as fast. I'm a great believer in preventative maintenance, especially if I don't have to get my hands dirty, or even worse, pay someone to service things that I have neglected. 

THANKS to another forumite for puting me on to them.

 

Fuel additives are a bit of unknown, varying from really good to snake oil.  There are only a few companies actually making them, they sell in bulk to the fuel companies who supply the petrol stations. The little "additive" companies buy this stuff in bulk, repackage it and sell in in small quantities to boaters etc, I think they often dilute it first to make the quantities more "manageable".

I would avoid companies that sell a whole range of additives to fix all sort of things, and go for those that just sell a basic additive. Marine16 complete and Stanadyne appear to be the most reputable, but Stanadyne sold theirs off and I am not sure the new owners are keeping technically up to date. Morris also do one.

A cetane raiser might be good and might even let the additive pay for itself, but is only really any good if your engine likes a high cetane number and the fuel is inadequate, a bit like taking vitamins, if you have enough there is little advantage in taking more.

Red sometimes used to be a little low in cetane, many people say red is now just white with a red dye.  

I suspect the stabilisers, detergents and lubricity components of the additive are a also good thing.

The additive is what makes the difference between basic petrol station fuel and expensive/go faster petrol station fuel.

 

...............Dave

 

[LadyG]

18 minutes ago, dmr said:

Fuel additives are a bit of unknown, varying from really good to snake oil.  There are only a few companies actually making them, they sell in bulk to the fuel companies who supply the petrol stations. The little "additive" companies buy this stuff in bulk, repackage it and sell in in small quantities to boaters etc, I think they often dilute it first to make the quantities more "manageable".

I would avoid companies that sell a whole range of additives to fix all sort of things, and go for those that just sell a basic additive. Marine16 complete and Stanadyne appear to be the most reputable, but Stanadyne sold theirs off and I am not sure the new owners are keeping technically up to date. Morris also do one.

A cetane raiser might be good and might even let the additive pay for itself, but is only really any good if your engine likes a high cetane number and the fuel is inadequate, a bit like taking vitamins, if you have enough there is little advantage in taking more.

Red sometimes used to be a little low in cetane, many people say red is now just white with a red dye.  

I suspect the stabilisers, detergents and lubricity components of the additive are a also good thing.

The additive is what makes the difference between basic petrol station fuel and expensive/go faster petrol station fuel.

 

...............Dave

 

Aha, but you haven't looked at the site have you?

[dmr]

Just now, LadyG said:

Aha, but you haven't looked at the site have you?

I had a very very quick look, it looked like lots of other additive sites, did I miss something? should I look again?

 

...................Dave