Spare Fuel...

[robtheplod]

Hi Everyone, how common is it for a narrowboat owner to carry around a spare can of diesel?  If so I'm assuming marinas wouldn't put in red diesel due to possible misuse, and if that's the case is filling with standard diesel as you get from a petrol station ok for a Beta 43?  Just thinking if this is something that would be a good idea for extended cruising weeks etc?  Are there BSS issues with storing diesel onboard in Jerry cans or the like?

 

Be interested to hear what 'normal' is here....

[BWM]

I've never had any problems having jerry cans filled with red at marinas and have often seen driveway experts filling theirs. Conversely, many filling stations won't allow you to fill a container of that volume. 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Hi Everyone, how common is it for a narrowboat owner to carry around a spare can of diesel?

Not very (But I have 20 litres JIC)

 

3 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

I'm assuming marinas wouldn't put in red diesel due to possible misuse,

Normally not a problem to refill with red.

 

3 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Are there BSS issues with storing diesel onboard in Jerry cans or the like?

No

 

[robtheplod]

thanks, so not unusual then..... ok will probably look to get one for peace of mind and also in case of theft from the main tank.....

[system 4-50]

But you will have to cycle it and not have a single fill held in reserve for years until it goes off?

[robtheplod]

1 minute ago, system 4-50 said:

But you will have to cycle it and not have a single fill held in reserve for years until it goes off?

Yes I thought that... what is the 'shelf life' of red diesel?    Change it every few months ok?

[system 4-50]

and I would think that "normal" is not to have a spare tank that has to be found storage space.  Not that I've done a survey.  Are suppliers scarce where you cruise?  

[robtheplod]

1 minute ago, system 4-50 said:

and I would think that "normal" is not to have a spare tank that has to be found storage space.  Not that I've done a survey.  Are suppliers scarce where you cruise?  

no, just belts and braces!   thanks for all the replies!

[system 4-50]

For me a principle reason would be to cover when I run right out due to incompetence at assessing the quantity left in the main tank!  Run out twice already in only ten years!

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Yes I thought that... what is the 'shelf life' of red diesel?    Change it every few months ok?

I have some in my Bowser, for 10 years, since we closed the business I'm not using much in the digger. Use it twice a week for moving some 'big-bales' - no problems.

"They" say that with the modern diesel, after about 1 year (maybe 2) it (can) start to wax-up and cause filter blockages. Not had any problems (but that's probably tempting fate.)

 

Due to various personal family problems, since I filled the tanks on the cruiser in 2015 (2,800 litres) we have done very little cruising and the tanks are still 3/4+ full. When we moved her last October and had her dropped in the Sea in North Wales there were no signs of any fuel problems.

 

Diesel is not like petrol.

[Ex Brummie]

If you have the space, then a couple of 25 litre containers filled up at a reasonable price can save a small fortune if you cruise is in an area that normally serves 'gin palaces', such as the Thames. On our last cruise on the Thames, apart from Reading at about £1 litre, every where seemed to charge £1.40 upwards, about twice the price I can pay closer to home. Turner's at Wheaton Aston provide a tray to stand containers in to minimise spills.

A garden cane can be kept in the bilge to give you an accurate depth check, assuming you don't have a swan neck in the filler tube.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Ex Brummie
to add a footnote.

[tree monkey]

1 hour ago, robtheplod said:

no, just belts and braces!   thanks for all the replies!

I generally keep 3 jerry cans full for use in the winter incase we get frozen in and the fuel boat can't make it, if I don't use them they get emptied into the tank in the summer and refilled in the autumn 

[1agos]

I used to keep a spare can of fuel when I had an outboard engined cruiser, I continued carrying spare fuel when we first got the narrowboat  but it was never used in the first two years so stopped carrying it. I usually fill up when the tank is between a quarter  to half full. 

[Momac]

I think it's best to consume the fuel  rather than store it, as far as is reasonably possible.

 

[Clodi]

You can store red diesel for years no problem. We did on the holding. It's always best to keep the tank on the boat topped up, stops condensation problems. I always carry a couple of Jerry and full just in case.

[Momac]

Since red diesel became ultra low sulphur in 2010 and there is is ever increasing amounts of bio-diesel  content  I am not at all convinced the long term storage life of diesel is anything like what it might have been a decade ago.

[Alan de Enfield]

29 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Since red diesel became ultra low sulphur in 2010 and there is is ever increasing amounts of bio-diesel  content  I am not at all convinced the long term storage life of diesel is anything like what it might have been a decade ago.

It was being discussed on a recent TV programme.

 

As I mentioned earlier "they" say it will now only keep for about 12 months before it starts to get 'waxy' and potentially block filters.

[Ex Brummie]

A good supplier will supply FAME free fuel. Any self respecting specifies this for plant use and avoids all the pitfalls of bio fuel.

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

A good supplier will supply FAME free fuel. Any self respecting specifies this for plant use and avoids all the pitfalls of bio fuel.

I asked my supplier (I have several and who got the business depended on price) to supply FAME Free because it is known to cause problems on agricultural machinery - particularly when stored unused over Winter) and they said they could not guarantee it.

I said company XYZ  supplied FAME Free and they said . "they fill up their tankers from exactly the same refinery, from exactly the same tanks as we do, we are even sat in the queue behind them at times. We do not know what we are getting so how can they ?"

 

It would be interesting to buy some FAME Free and actually test it - I wonder what the results would be ?

[Momac]

8 hours ago, Ex Brummie said:

A good supplier will supply FAME free fuel. Any self respecting specifies this for plant use and avoids all the pitfalls of bio fuel.

I think most people and businesses who use red diesel for whatever purpose would like it to be FAME free . However I am not convinced that FAME free fuel  has existed for some time .

Indeed it seems now to be a legal requirement to include FAME in the fuel ?

https://www.cpsfuels.co.uk/news/fame-in-gas-oil-what-this-means-to-gas-oil-users

 

 

[jeddlad]

I have a 2nd tank for the diesel CH, after my experience last summer of most boat yards (south of the T&M) not willing to allow self decleration, ie 100%, next summer I'll fill the bow tank and decant it via a can into the engine tank. I did find boat yards willing to allow a 100% split in the summer but they were very few and far between. 

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, jeddlad said:

I have a 2nd tank for the diesel CH, after my experience last summer of most boat yards (south of the T&M) not willing to allow self decleration, ie 100%, next summer I'll fill the bow tank and decant it via a can into the engine tank. I did find boat yards willing to allow a 100% split in the summer but they were very few and far between. 

If you are cruising, surely declaring 100% domestic is not being entirely honest. 

 

Transferring your '100% declaration fuel' from the domestic tank to the 'engine tank' is fraud.

[jeddlad]

26 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you are cruising, surely declaring 100% domestic is not being entirely honest. 

 

Transferring your '100% declaration fuel' from the domestic tank to the 'engine tank' is fraud.

When you buy red diesel and make the decleration, regardless of what you do with that fuel,  the decleration is between yourself and HMRC. It's got absolutely nothing to do with anyone else except yourself and HMRC...........in a boating sense. Different if you use red on the road.

Edited February 24, 2020 by jeddlad

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, jeddlad said:

When you buy red diesel and make the decleration, regardless of what you do with that fuel,  the decleration is between yourself and HMRC. It's got absolutely nothing to do with anyone else except yourself and HMRC...........in a boating sense. Different if you use red on the road.

Agreed, but admitting you are flaunting the law on a public forum ............… That's so sad.

 

Do you just choose which laws you will abide by and which you will ignore?

Are you one of those weird 'free man of the land' type ?

 

So, murdering someone is nothing to do with anyone else it is just between the Police and yourself.

[Flyboy]

21 minutes ago, jeddlad said:

When you buy red diesel and make the decleration, regardless of what you do with that fuel,  the decleration is between yourself and HMRC. It's got absolutely nothing to do with anyone else except yourself and HMRC...........in a boating sense. Different if you use red on the road.

It not a requirement to make a declaration even at a boatyard/marina if it's in cans.  As you say it's between you and HMRC.