Jump to content
Strawberry Orange Banana Lime Leaf Slate Sky Blueberry Grape Watermelon Chocolate Marble
Strawberry Orange Banana Lime Leaf Slate Sky Blueberry Grape Watermelon Chocolate Marble
Sign in to follow this  
Batainte

Timber frame windows on a 70x12 good idea?

Featured Posts

22 hours ago, Bee said:

Still all original on the inside, it is painted t&g, no rot but I reckon that the paint could well cover a bit of staining, As for treating the wood etc. it is constant, last summer the decks and cabin roof(s) were painted, this summer its all the burgundy paint and some black stuff on the hull above the waterline and next year I suppose it could be back on dock again, every summer there is a bit of cracking of the Sikkens stain stuff to fix and so it goes on - and on and on. Oh and the Vacuflush needs a damn good sort out and there's that odd electrical problem .......

So technically, would you say- it could be proven that timber frame windows serve well (apart from yearly maintenance of re-oiling/varnishing) in comparison to aliminum ones? Are these original or did you change the windows during the 12 year ownership of the vessel, was there any thermal break system on the profile that you applied for these or went with no science behind and just used the same system as found on regular onshore houses?

Had a wheelhouse built in mahogany sapele already and was advised by the builder that Sikkens (Teak 085) apparently does a good job with two or three coats and lasts a couple of years. Am surprised that your need to reapply ever so often.

 

22 hours ago, WotEver said:

Utile looks very similar to Sapele but is a little more expensive. It mills and finishes better than Sapele. You’d be hard pushed to immediately be able to tell if something was made of Sapele or Utile. That dog box shown in the ‘leaking skylight’ thread was made from Utile. Having said that, Utile is lighter and softer than Sapele so for something that’s going to get knocked and bashed about, like say a wheelhouse, Sapele might be a better choice. 

http://thompsonmahogany.com/african-mahogany-vs-sapele-vs-utile/

Thanks for the info, am rather uneducated about Utile as was under the impression that Sapele is the one to go with particularly when considering living along the canal (higher moisture and humidity levels were the main factors for this).

 

 

22 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yes it will work and will reduce (potentially to almost nothing) the condensation.

 

You will need to work out the volume of the boat and buy a de-humidifier suitable for that volume.

In the Autumn / Winter you may well need to run it 24/7

 

Have you undertaken a power-audit so you know what size battery bank you will need, and what you will need to produce to re-charge the batteries.

Thanks for insight about these- perhaps id require more than one to cover an area. Any good brands to check out?

The boat will come with a generator so in theory getting rid of condensation will come at a cost.... of diesel.

 

22 hours ago, jonathanA said:

Each time their own but to me wooden window frames on steel boats look out of place and given the choice I would never have wooden frames on a house. Even really good hardwood frames need  staining or oiling every couple of years. 
 

double glazed units are they way to go for sure amazing how long it’s taken for them to become normal on new build canal boats

Bee's boat above looks quite appealing with its wood frame windows and adds more organic look to it in comparison to aluminium ones. Although as someone mentioned above about having just portholes (had to google for images), they do have a nice look although a bit "submariney".

 

 

22 hours ago, dmr said:

There was a bit of boat wisdom a few years ago (appears to all be getting lost recently), minimise the amount of external wood on a narrowboat, do as much as possible in steel. Mebe it don't apply on widebeams cus they are more like 'ouses?

 

................Dave

I wonder what type of window frames they used back in the days before all this hi-tech wizardry :huh:

This was the main reason for this post- to find out whether anyone has some experience with timber frame windows and see how they perform in comparison to aluminium ones. It appears to be that its leaning very much towards aluminum ones.

 

2 hours ago, Detling said:

Solar in winter can produce nothing some days and a tiny bit of power on others, everything else has to be generated by burning fuel which gets expensive a kilowatt hour from the electricity grid will be around 15p from diesel or petrol nearer to £1.00. Charging batteries in winter is expensive so use as little power as possible.

Actually went down to a solar supplier the other day to consult about the panels and their average daily output. Ofcourse his answer was "Depending on the season." and explained the fact that during winter period (which is about 3+ months a year) in the UK there is an average 1h of possible daylight to generate any solar energy. It does get better during the summer... which raises another question- In practical terms, can solar system on a boat actually be able to generate an output higher than whats required for charging a mobile phone (during the cold/ dark periods)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Batainte said:

Had a wheelhouse built in mahogany sapele already and was advised by the builder that Sikkens (Teak 085) apparently does a good job with two or three coats and lasts a couple of years. Am surprised that your need to reapply ever so often.

If you don’t mind a glossy finish and you’re starting with bare wood then I don’t think anything can beat LeTonkenois. No peeling, flaking or cracking. Just wipe it down every year or two to get rid of any muck and freshen it up with a light coat and it’ll look as good as new after 10 years. 

47 minutes ago, Batainte said:

Thanks for the info, am rather uneducated about Utile as was under the impression that Sapele is the one to go with particularly when considering living along the canal (higher moisture and humidity levels were the main factors for this).

Check out that link. 

Edited by WotEver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 23/02/2020 at 15:34, Batainte said:

Does anybody have timber frame windows on their canalboats, 

Yes.  Not by choice, they were installed by the previous owner.

 

On 23/02/2020 at 15:34, Batainte said:

do you have any issues with them not lasting what they are meant to

No.  They are good hardwood, so look untidy if not maintained/varnished/painted/stained/oiled , but no rot or problems despite them being covered in slimy green and only partially painted when we got the boat.  Five years ago.

 

On 23/02/2020 at 15:34, Batainte said:

would any expert boaters actually suggest going down this potentially risky route etc...?

No.

 

On 23/02/2020 at 15:34, Batainte said:

any other issues,

Deep breath ...

Grit teeth ...

 

Hello, my name is @TheBiscuits and I accept I have a problem.  I have wooden windows on my steel narrowboat.

 

[Muted applause] ... [Murmurs of Welcome Biscuits] ...

 

The only people that will tell you this is a great idea are either trying to sell you wooden windows for your boat, or are trying to sell you a steel boat that has wooden windows already installed!

 

On 23/02/2020 at 19:06, Bee said:

Would I do it that way again? On that boat yes, on a boat with sloping sides? No.

Absolutely nailed it.  @Bee's boat has vertical cabin sides with a slight overlap of steel at the top and curved window tops and does not have any major issues.

 

I have steeply sloping sides, no overlap and straight window tops. 

 

Every time the boat gets craned, we need to reseal every window on the boat. 

 

Every time the temperature beats another record (like the sunshine last year!), the steel expands enough to break the seal between the steel and the wood, so we need to reseal all the windows.  In winter, the steel contracts which stresses the sealant, but it's nothing like as bad as the summer sun.

 

The design of the windows would be fantastic if they were vertical, but the clever wood shaping to throw rainwater off the frames does not work if the window is laid back at a >15° angle. 

 

They look OK, and good thermal break double glazing is well worth the extra cost, but no, don't do it.

 

Caldwell's in Wigan do a really nice range of double glazing where the whole window drops back for venting or is entirely removable when it gets silly hot - not just a top hopper, but the entire pane as one piece.  Get them!

 

  • Greenie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, WotEver said:

If you don’t mind a glossy finish and you’re starting with bare wood then I don’t think anything can beat LeTonkenois. No peeling, flaking or cracking. Just wipe it down every year or two to get rid of any muck and freshen it up with a light coat and it’ll look as good as new after 10 years. 

Check out that link. 

 

Completely agree.

 

If you add their matting agent "Gel-o-mat" to the final coat you can get any finish you like from satin to completely matt.

Edited by cuthound
Clarification

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, cuthound said:

If you add their matting agent "Gel-o-mat" to the final coat you can get any finish you like from satin to completely matt.

Seen it in their site but never used it. Have you experimented with it yourself?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, WotEver said:

If you don’t mind a glossy finish and you’re starting with bare wood then I don’t think anything can beat LeTonkenois. No peeling, flaking or cracking. Just wipe it down every year or two to get rid of any muck and freshen it up with a light coat and it’ll look as good as new after 10 years. 

Check out that link. 

Thanks, read some positive "LeTonkenois" comments mentioned in a couple of threads- will check it out. Although not too keen on high gloss as "earthy" matt seems more appealing to an eye- besides any little chips or bump cracks would be more visible with this type of finish.

Thanks for advice @cuthound, this comes in handy. Any experience with that? How did it look with time?

 

 

 

13 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Yes.  Not by choice, they were installed by the previous owner.

 

No.  They are good hardwood, so look untidy if not maintained/varnished/painted/stained/oiled , but no rot or problems despite them being covered in slimy green and only partially painted when we got the boat.  Five years ago.

 

No.

 

Deep breath ...

Grit teeth ...

 

Hello, my name is @TheBiscuits and I accept I have a problem.  I have wooden windows on my steel narrowboat.

 

[Muted applause] ... [Murmurs of Welcome Biscuits] ...

 

The only people that will tell you this is a great idea are either trying to sell you wooden windows for your boat, or are trying to sell you a steel boat that has wooden windows already installed!

 

Absolutely nailed it.  @Bee's boat has vertical cabin sides with a slight overlap of steel at the top and curved window tops and does not have any major issues.

 

I have steeply sloping sides, no overlap and straight window tops. 

 

Every time the boat gets craned, we need to reseal every window on the boat. 

 

Every time the temperature beats another record (like the sunshine last year!), the steel expands enough to break the seal between the steel and the wood, so we need to reseal all the windows.  In winter, the steel contracts which stresses the sealant, but it's nothing like as bad as the summer sun.

 

The design of the windows would be fantastic if they were vertical, but the clever wood shaping to throw rainwater off the frames does not work if the window is laid back at a >15° angle. 

 

They look OK, and good thermal break double glazing is well worth the extra cost, but no, don't do it.

 

Caldwell's in Wigan do a really nice range of double glazing where the whole window drops back for venting or is entirely removable when it gets silly hot - not just a top hopper, but the entire pane as one piece.  Get them!

 

Thanks for the insight and words of wisdom. An acquaintance of mine is a joiner (produces bespoke timber windows and high end furniture for a living) so we came up with the challenge of fabricating timber frame windows for the boat some time ago. At start this idea seemed perfect due to timber frame insulation properties (aside fo inter-yearly frame maintenance) and actually adding value to the boat in the long run as we would fabricate everything ourselves. After doing some research stumbled upon thermal break option by already-mentioned Caldwells so we thought to use the same profile for timber frame structure, however didn't manage to figure out whether this would actually work as none of us have ever fitted such windows on a vessel- as the microclimate/ environment around the boat is way different than onshore houses. There are many factors which we didn't anticipate or cover- as mentioned about summer/ winter impact resulting in frame contraction and expanding affecting the sealant (although for onshore frames this ratio is about 1-4mm). Also, didn't account for the sloping sides as @Bee had mentioned on the first post- a fact which we didnt account for entirely.

Got in touch with Caldwells, their wait times are about 8-10 weeks and the wide beam (with holes cut out for windows) is coming out in about 4... guess its going to be lots and lots of OSB boards to cover everything up, ck ck ck!

Nevertheless, would still be curious to acquire more information from anyone with these.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Batainte said:

besides any little chips or bump cracks would be more visible with this type of finish

You’d be hard pushed to achieve either with LeTonk. It’s too flexible and moves with the wood. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, WotEver said:

Seen it in their site but never used it. Have you experimented with it yourself?

 

Yes, works well. All of the external wood on my boat is finished in Le Tonk gloss, for easy maintenance, but the inside of the cabin was finished in satin, so I added some to the final coat when I Le Tonk'd the inside of the cabin doors.

 

The only problem is you have to experiment to get the satin finish you want, and have to mix up enough to do the job in one go, otherwise you probably wont get the same shade of satin ever again!

Edited by cuthound

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Batainte said:

Thanks, read some positive "LeTonkenois" comments mentioned in a couple of threads- will check it out. Although not too keen on high gloss as "earthy" matt seems more appealing to an eye- besides any little chips or bump cracks would be more visible with this type of finish.

Thanks for advice @cuthound, this comes in handy. Any experience with that? How did it look with time?

 

I did the inside of my cabin doors with Le Tonk and Gel-o-mat to get a satin finish the same as the rest of the internal woodwork about three years or four ago. Still looks like the day I varnished it.

 

However the Le Tonk applied to the external woodwork needs another top coat every couple of years or it fails like any other external varnish.

Edited by cuthound
Missing letter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 25/02/2020 at 12:28, WotEver said:

You’d be hard pushed to achieve either with LeTonk. It’s too flexible and moves with the wood. 

Thanks for advice. Would you know the difference between Sikkens (as advised to use on my wheelhouse)  and Le Tonk?

 

On 25/02/2020 at 13:12, cuthound said:

 

I did the inside of my cabin doors with Le Tonk and Gel-o-mat to get a satin finish the same as the rest of the internal woodwork about three years or four ago. Still looks like the day I varnished it.

 

However the Le Tonk applied to the external woodwork needs another top coat every couple of years or it fails like any other external varnish.

Awesome, will read on this more around the forum as its been mentioned on a couple of threads.

 

 

 

Thank you all.

Edited by Batainte

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Batainte said:

Would you know the difference between Sikkens (as advised to use on my wheelhouse)  and Le Tonk?

Le Tonkenoise is a varnish...

https://www.letonkinoisvarnish.co.uk/varmain.html
 

Sikkens make a range of coatings which I believe are all oil based...

https://www.sikkens-wood-coatings.com/products/product-details/product/show/cetolr-sf-731-8/
 

Has whoever advised Sikkens ever tried LeTonk?


Why not email LeTonk and ask them how their product compares to Sikkens Cetol (or whichever Sikkens you’re thinking of)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The people who suggested Sikkens are boat builders and i had contracted my wheelhouse (mahogany sappele) to be built by them and that was the only product suggested by them.

Will send the builder a message to enquire whats their opinion about LeTonk.. good idea for suggesting to email the company and enquire about their differences from other competitors.

Thanks again

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Le Tonk is v expensive, but gives good results without ten coats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, LadyG said:

Le Tonk is v expensive, but gives good results without ten coats.

 

I always put six thin coats on for exterior woodwork then another coat every couple of years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

I always put six thin coats on for exterior woodwork then another coat every couple of years.

Yup, me too. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although its 21st century and having gazillions of products available, it seems that its no matter which product one would use on external timber, there will always be a need for a recoat every now and then.

Nevertheless, seeing it as a short days work with a glass of red somewhere on the side whilst brushing up on DIY skills is always enjoyable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Batainte said:

Nevertheless, seeing it as a short days work with a glass of red somewhere on the side whilst brushing up on DIY skills is always enjoyable.

 

I prefer it as a spectator sport personally.  With the glass of red on the in-side.  :)

 

You know the old saying :  "Work fascinates me - I can sit and watch someone do it all day!"

 

 

 

  • Happy 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would definitely have to agree with this as there is always something mesmerizing about seeing someone doing their work.

Cheerio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

  "Work fascinates me - I can sit and watch someone do it all day!"

     JKJ  ?

 

 

 

  • Happy 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Mike Jordan said:

JKJ?

Probably, although paraphrased.  I've been saying it for decades.

 

When I was at school and people asked me what job I saw myself doing my stock answer was lollipop man. 

 

Why? 

 

Part time work, term time only and you don't have to start until you are 65!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.