Alice And The WonderCat Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 Hi All :) I am planning to buy narrowboat and making my budget predictions. I know that most of older boats have nonplastic water tanks, black water tanks and sewer tanks. I would like to take out all of them and put in only plastic black water tank and fresh water tank (as composting toilet is my choice). How much of the flooring I will be in need of removing to do that? I am ready to remove as much as needed (I am planning to put new insulation and wooden floors, so that's not a problem). Maybe someone has experience with this kind of project and could give me some advice? I could not find any articles or YouTube videos on that... Thank you :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Davis Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 Black water IS sewer water! Why take them out and spend a load of money if there is nothing wrong with them? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 Removing the water tank could also be a big job, even if its not part of the hull. Non of them are likely to be below the floor but the black water tank may sit through the floor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenK Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 Many narrowboats have the water tank as part of the structure, normally in the bow, replacing that with plastic is not an option although you could fit a liner. Some boats have stainless steel water tanks which overcome the potential rust problems. As for black water or sewage buy one with a cassette, they are already plastic. Sorry everyone please don't restart the old argument! Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machpoint005 Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 My black water holding tank (macerator bog) is plastic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) If you don't want an integral water tank or a big black water (pump-out) tank on your proposed new boat then the solution is simple: buy a boat with a stainless steel or plastic (maintenance-free) water tank and without a built in pump-out toilet tank. There are plenty of such boats on the market and that's going to be much easier than going to all the trouble of removing a pump-out tank from a boat that has one. Edited February 22, 2020 by blackrose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 35 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said: My black water holding tank (macerator bog) is plastic! So are ours, over thirty years old now Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 43 minutes ago, KenK said: Many narrowboats have the water tank as part of the structure, normally in the bow, replacing that with plastic is not an option although you could fit a liner. Yes the OP hasn't realised that the integral water tanks on older narrowboats are actually just the internals of the bow of the boat with a bulkhead. You can't remove that unless you want to cut the front of the boat off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 1 minute ago, blackrose said: Yes the OP hasn't realised that the integral water tanks on older narrowboats are actually just the internals of the bow of the boat with a bulkhead. You can't remove that unless you want to cut the front of the boat off. Well.... Not with a rigid tank, our rubber bag didn't need the front cutting off to fit Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotEver Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) I’m wondering if this another case of a new boater wishing to reinvent the wheel... Edited February 22, 2020 by WotEver Tryping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 5 minutes ago, RLWP said: Well.... Not with a rigid tank, our rubber bag didn't need the front cutting off to fit Richard But you didn't remove the water tank when you fitted your rubber bag. The OP said she wanted to remove the water tank which isn't possible with an integral tank. But I agree that a liner may be the solution she's looking for. 5 minutes ago, WotEver said: I’m wondering if this another case of a new boater wishing you reinvent the wheel... Quite possibly. One can have all sorts of interesting ideas about what one wants to do when buying a boat. The reality of owning a boat can be quite different. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenK Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Alice And The WonderCat said: Hi All I am planning to buy narrowboat and making my budget predictions. I know that most of older boats have nonplastic water tanks, black water tanks and sewer tanks. I would like to take out all of them and put in only plastic black water tank and fresh water tank (as composting toilet is my choice). How much of the flooring I will be in need of removing to do that? I am ready to remove as much as needed (I am planning to put new insulation and wooden floors, so that's not a problem). Maybe someone has experience with this kind of project and could give me some advice? I could not find any articles or YouTube videos on that... Thank you I do wonder how much you know about narrowboat construction. The floor in a narrowboat has little or nothing under it except the baseplate and ballast. The black water tank will probably be under the bed, other locations are possible. Narrowboat floors are usually wood based, although that may be covered in other materials. Composing toilets do not need black water tanks, the liquid you remove similar to a cassette and the solids are composted, dispose of as you see fit. Water liner or stainless steel, your choice. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Alice And The WonderCat said: I would like to take out all of them and put in only plastic black water tank and fresh water tank A curious decision. May I enquire why, when you haven't even bought the boat yet? Have you found one that needs this work, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Alice And The WonderCat said: I would like to take out all of them and put in only plastic black water tank and fresh water tank (as composting toilet is my choice). Do you realise that Black Water is 'toilet waste' - with a Composting toilet you don't have any toilet waste, just the buckets of 'poo' that you have to keep under the bead for 6+ months until it dries out. You don't need a black-water tank with a composting toilet. It could only happen in London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 29 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: just the buckets of 'poo' that you have to keep under the bead The buckets will be MUCH larger than the bead you mention, so storing them all for 6 months could be quite a problem I think. 30 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: You don't need a black-water tank with a composting toilet. Where does one store all the wee then, with a composting bog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted February 22, 2020 Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 28 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said: Where does one store all the wee then, with a composting bog? It is separated into a piss bottle at the front. The ones I've seen are only a few litres so it has to be disposed of frequently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tumshie Posted February 22, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 22, 2020 1 hour ago, WotEver said: I’m wondering if this another case of a new boater wishing to reinvent the wheel... Or perhaps a case of a new boater who doesn't yet know what can and can't be done or what is worth doing and whats not - nor will they be the first person to need to remove a holding tank (if they do) so hardly reinventing the wheel. 3 hours ago, Alice And The WonderCat said: Maybe someone has experience with this kind of project and could give me some advice? I could not find any articles or YouTube videos on that... Off the top of my head I can think of two YouTube channels where people have posted their narrowboat refits/fit outs; Narrowboat Helen is a channel that shows and older boat being stripped out and refitted, and Narrowboat Zero Gravity is a new boat being fitted out for the first time. The chap from NB Helen is experienced and this is not his first NB project and the couple from NB ZG are new to the whole thing but put a lot of research and work into getting it right which they share on their channel. Both of these YouTube channels will give you a better idea what is going on under the floor and behind the walls. Plus they're just really interesting. Just remember that everybody had to start some where and nobody just instantly knows everything, you will learn what you need to learn as you go along, so please don't be put off by those who might belittle you for not having the knowledge that they took many decades to acquire. There search function in the top right hand side of the site header is very useful. It might be worth considering that a a boat that needs a lot of work done might be cheaper to buy but might work out more expensive in the long run by the time you get the work finished. I'm not sure but from reading your first post you might be muddling up grey water and black water. Black water is you toilet waste and grey water is your sink etc. Welcome to the forum and good luck with your new adventure. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacka Posted February 23, 2020 Report Share Posted February 23, 2020 (edited) Hi, just to clarify the excellent post above, grey water (sink,shower etc) goes straight into the canal without storage or treatment. As to drinking water, most boats were built with a tank that is basically a sealed compartment at the front of the boat. Traditionally this was painted with bitumen to stop it rusting, but many now use an epoxy. If you object to using this kind of tank (many of us use this style without any problems) you can get a big rubber bag to go in the tank that holds the water, though condensation will trap between the bag and the boat and without a good paint on the hull it will rust. Or you can fit a stainless tank, but it will be expensive and small if you put it inside a built-in tank. You can have a free standing tank inside your boat, but they tend to be big and so take up a lot of space depending on how big a tank you want. Probably at least 500 litres. Edited February 23, 2020 by Chewbacka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted February 23, 2020 Report Share Posted February 23, 2020 8 minutes ago, Chewbacka said: You can have a free standing tank inside your boat, but they tend to be big and so take up a lot of space depending on how big a tank you want. Probably at least 500 litres. The obvious place to fit a new plastic suitably-sized water tank would be under the bed, where the black water tank is being removed from. This assumes the OP sticks with her plan to use a composting bog. The viability of a composting toilet on a narrow beam boat depends largely on whether and where the boat will be permanently moored. Storing the containers of poo for three to six months appears to be necessary while the composting process completes, and finding somewhere to keep the containers on board both outside and where they will not be in the way when cruising the boat is not easy, so most composting users store in on the land. To do this, obviously you have to have some land! Although users often point out that composting toilets does not smell at all, the same does not apply (I suspect) to the composting buckets while they are maturing, so they need to be stored outside. Consequently the OP should not take the decision to switch to a composting toilet casually as the ramifications are large, and the decision about what sort of toilet to have impacts heavily on decisions about replacing water tanks, and how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted February 23, 2020 Report Share Posted February 23, 2020 10 hours ago, Tumshie said: I'm not sure but from reading your first post you might be muddling up grey water and black water. Black water is you toilet waste and grey water is your sink etc I hope you're not belittling someone for lacking the knowledge that took you decades to acquire? Decades! ? I don't think anyone was belittling the OP. The only reason some of us perhaps sounded a bit cynical was simply because the OP had asked questions based on a premise that she should probably have checked first. If it's of any consolation I think we've all asked silly questions on this forum and been given equally skeptical answers. It's just how it works on here and nobody is exempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGoat Posted February 23, 2020 Report Share Posted February 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said: The obvious place to fit a new plastic suitably-sized water tank would be under the bed, where the black water tank is being removed from. This assumes the OP sticks with her plan to use a composting bog. The viability of a composting toilet on a narrow beam boat depends largely on whether and where the boat will be permanently moored. Storing the containers of poo for three to six months appears to be necessary while the composting process completes, and finding somewhere to keep the containers on board both outside and where they will not be in the way when cruising the boat is not easy, so most composting users store in on the land. To do this, obviously you have to have some land! Although users often point out that composting toilets does not smell at all, the same does not apply (I suspect) to the composting buckets while they are maturing, so they need to be stored outside. Consequently the OP should not take the decision to switch to a composting toilet casually as the ramifications are large, and the decision about what sort of toilet to have impacts heavily on decisions about replacing water tanks, and how. An excellent post from MtB. The first reaction from folks here is usually one of derision - it's NOT an attack on any questioner, but more a matter of 'here we go again' (as there have been many, many threads in the past and doubltless more co come), therefore don't be put off. My suggestions - If the existing water tank is sound - then rather than spend a lot of money on replaceing it how's about:- fitting a water filter at the kitchen sink to remove any nasties? Your body won't suffer if there are occasional bit of rust 'n stuff in your other domestic water uses. A composting loo is fiddly to use and maintain and you shoud be aware that there are - as yet- no or very, very few places where you can dispose of the waste - hence the points about carrying it around with you until it has properly composted. It is socially irresponsible if you just dump the liquid in the cut and the solids in a bin. More conventional camping loos at least have the facility to store the effluent in a container and you can purchase spares so that an accumulation of full ordure containers can be emptied later when you cruise by (I hope you will do some cruising...). If you want to rip the floor up, then consider a large plastic tank underneth the looand which goes down to the base plate for extra capacity (that's what I did for both our loos when I built the boat). I can never understand why folks make a fuss about pump-outs, when at the same time they are happy to used 'bucket and chuck it' sanitation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmr Posted February 23, 2020 Report Share Posted February 23, 2020 Steel black water tanks can be a problem on older tanks, plastic is better. A pump out bog with a big tank is a good thing to have as long as you plan to be moving your boat. Integral (steel) water tanks have got very out of fashion of late, I really don't understand why this is but suspect its because some people have had bad experiences due to a total lack of maintenance. Just make sure there is a big access hatch so that you get get inside it once every few years. ..................Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted February 23, 2020 Report Share Posted February 23, 2020 10 minutes ago, dmr said: A pump out bog with a big tank is a good thing to have as long as you plan to be moving your boat. Or, know that a pump-out boat will be passing soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted February 23, 2020 Report Share Posted February 23, 2020 19 minutes ago, dmr said: Just make sure there is a big access hatch so that you get get inside it once every few years. I can't for the life of me work out why everyone with a steel pump-out tank does not get inside it every three or four years and inspect it carefully, and re-black the inside as necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumshie Posted February 23, 2020 Report Share Posted February 23, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, blackrose said: I hope you're not belittling someone for lacking the knowledge that took you decades to acquire? Decades! ? In my case only a couple of decades as I'm not nearly as old as almost everybody else here. 4 hours ago, blackrose said: I don't think anyone was belittling the OP. The only reason some of us perhaps sounded a bit cynical was simply because the OP had asked questions based on a premise that she should probably have checked first. With the best will in the world being cynical can quite often come across as belittling to someone who doesn't know you, plus she is asking a question based on the knowledge that she has at this time and is trying to check things out, for some people it's not obvious where or how they should go about checking things out and this seems like the place to do it; it can be difficult to use the search function if you don't know the correct word or as with using "tank" as you keyword it can give you a hell of a lot of threads none of which might actually seem to answer your question. It might be "here we go again" for the older forumites but the new first time posters don't know that or that the reason the forum is being actively unwelcoming to them is because the question they are asking was once asked five years ago so everybody's bored of it now. It would be more helpful and better for the forum's long term sustainability if when people were feeling cynical they politely advised the new member where they could find the material needed to do the research rather than making snide, condescending comments about the fact that the OP comes from London. None of this was aimed at you personally or specifically BR even though I quoted you. Back to @Alice And The WonderCat if you are still looking for YouTube videos then try searching for the "Minimal List" they had to remove their black water tank and they posted a couple of videos and did a blog post, and then on composting toilets "The Narrowboat Experience" have one and they love it and have posted quite a few videos about their experience, and then the "London Boat Girl" she had one and decided it wasn't for her so she doesn't have one anymore but she did a couple of good, honest vlogs about her pros and cons, she is definitely not a hater of them but it wasn't for her and she explains why, making some fair points. https://www.minimallist.co.uk/2018/06/removing-our-black-water-tank-and.html https://narrowboatexperience.com London Boat Girl doesn't have a blog but can be found on YT and Facebook. Edited February 23, 2020 by Tumshie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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