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1 hour ago, Detling said:

I understand you can only get 'smart' car chargers installed now which may form a way of taxing electricity fed into a vehicle, so plans for a good homebrew dumb charger may sell well.

Not a requirement yet, besides I just replaced our 'smart' charger with a dumb one (it wouldn't play ball) cheapest charger available and it's a little cracker, variable output, a feature which I can't find anywhere else. 

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1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

My eldest daughter was very keen to go fully electric but after doing a fair bit of research she backed off and has ordered a Kia self charging hybrid instead. She regularly does long journeys (Including Cornwall for her holidays) and she didn't fancy the prospect of being in that exact situation so she compromised.

Demand for charging points will[has?] very quickly exceed[ed] supply. I would like to go electric but not many can afford a car with a 200 mile range, or get it as a company perk.   When there is a budget friendly offering that will give me 150 miles at national speed limits, I'll take a look because wouldn't want to rely on mid point recharging between A and B.

 

While we're getting there, so will HMRC, who as we know giveth and taketh away. Never ever been a free lunch!

 

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2 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Be prepared to eat your words in 10 – 20 years time Mr Boat. You may well find that a lot of that wind-produced electricity is being used to produce hydrogen. Some will undoubtedly be from wind farms well out into the North Sea and the hydrogen will be produced close to their location and piped ashore via redundant North Sea oil and gas pipelines. Not my personal vision but one from people who know what they're talking about. 

 

The first hydrogen-powered nb is not a million miles away (probably a hybrid hydrogen electric craft) and we're already way beyond the prototype stage with hydrogen powered blue water boats, with significant input from RYA, British Marine and Blue Green. IWA have a very active sub-committee working on Sustainable Boating and future propulsion.

Birmingham University built a hydrogen powered narrowboat some years ago, passed it in 2017 moored up somewhere near Brum. No idea if it is still in use but it still exists.

 

Ken

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1 minute ago, KenK said:

Birmingham University built a hydrogen powered narrowboat some years ago, passed it in 2017 moored up somewhere near Brum. No idea if it is still in use but it still exists.

 

Ken

Still in the same spot

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49 minutes ago, Peter X said:

 

Meanwhile re. my parent's supply of coke (no, NOT that sort of coke!), I have a notion that although Beckton gas works was big, there were others in London and elsewhere, so which our coal merchant got their supplies from I wouldn't know.

 

In SE London, quite possibly from the South Metropolitan Gas Company's East Greenwich Gas Works (now the site of the Millennium Dome/ O2 Arena), which was an enormous plant serving much of South London, but there were also other smaller local gas works.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Greenwich_Gas_Works

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16 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

As has been said in a few topics recently - that is wrong.

Battery technology is ok - see Tesla. 300 mile range on one charge. Current batteries are ok and getting better by the year.

Most owners would charge at home overnight - 70% of the population could do this - the other 30% who live in apartments etc couldnt. For long trips use superchargers on trunk roads etc. The problem is not recharging infrastructure - but electricity generation. Falkirk are currently installing 100 charging points that will be FREE to us. Lots of other Scotish towns are doing the same thing.

 

A big change is coming. With the BIK tax break on EVs with a range over 250 miles (IIRC) there are lots of peeps who will get EV company cars. For peeps who dont understand BIK, if you get a company car, you get taxed on the value of that car. So if you are a higher rate tax payer ie 40%, then you can have a car without paying ANY tax (post this April) so that is worth £20K benefit on a Model 3 Tesla. In effect you can get a £50K Tesla for the same price as a £30K Merc/BMW/Audi. Watch the uptake in EVs increase massively this April.

Wonderful 300 miles, so actually 150 miles out and 150 back, my diesel does 550 miles per tank and worst case takes 10 minutes to refill if the fuel station is busy, as it a Euro 6 model only £30 tax a year. Given the number of posts on here over the years bemoaning failed batteries on narrowboats I'd hardly describe them as OK, as for getting better possibly but if I have a choice between electric or hydrogen I'll take the latter. Fortunately it won't be a problem for me I'll have given up driving by the time I'd need to choose.

 

Ken

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2 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Be prepared to eat your words in 10 – 20 years time Mr Boat. You may well find that a lot of that wind-produced electricity is being used to produce hydrogen. Some will undoubtedly be from wind farms well out into the North Sea and the hydrogen will be produced close to their location and piped ashore via redundant North Sea oil and gas pipelines. Not my personal vision but one from people who know what they're talking about. 

 

The first hydrogen-powered nb is not a million miles away (probably a hybrid hydrogen electric craft) and we're already way beyond the prototype stage with hydrogen powered blue water boats, with significant input from RYA, British Marine and Blue Green. IWA have a very active sub-committee working on Sustainable Boating and future propulsion.

We have had a hydrogen powered narrow boat for years its moored up at Birmingham university a complete flop apparently.  When they get around hydrogen destroying the metal to store and deliver it batteries will be so far ahead that's it now it will be pointless! Universities know this but take the grants 

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8 minutes ago, KenK said:

 Given the number of posts on here over the years bemoaning failed batteries on narrowboats I'd hardly describe them as OK,

 

 

The batteries that peeps moan about here are Lead Acids.

EV's us lithiums which are far superior and CAN last 8 years if managed properly. Tesla are leading the world and theirs ARE ok.

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13 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

The batteries that peeps moan about here are Lead Acids. 

And most of them arnt charged properly

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11 minutes ago, peterboat said:

We have had a hydrogen powered narrow boat for years its moored up at Birmingham university a complete flop apparently.  When they get around hydrogen destroying the metal to store and deliver it batteries will be so far ahead that's it now it will be pointless! Universities know this but take the grants 

I'll be genuinely fascinated to see what form of power predominates in 10 – 20 years time and happy to keep an open mind until then. Too many forms of transport are well down the hydrogen road to make me think that hydrogen won't be significant player though.

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35 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

In SE London, quite possibly from the South Metropolitan Gas Company's East Greenwich Gas Works (now the site of the Millennium Dome/ O2 Arena), which was an enormous plant serving much of South London, but there were also other smaller local gas works.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Greenwich_Gas_Works

 

 

That was the enemy ......... SE Gas - we were Norf Thames.

 

Other London sites were Southall, Kensal Green, Battersea <aka Nine Elms>, Bromley by Bow, Kings Cross, Hornsey, Fulham, Goswell Road, Lea Bridge, Romford, South Harrow, Brentford, Uxbridge, Richmond, Mill Hill, Stanmore, Pinner, Poplar. From memory.

 

 

Edited by mark99

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30 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

The batteries that peeps moan about here are Lead Acids.

EV's us lithiums which are far superior and CAN last 8 years if managed properly. Tesla are leading the world and theirs ARE ok.

Yes those wonderful Lithium batteries which caught fire on several aircraft. Sorry choosing one form of technology and ignoring others is self defeating. As a country indeed as a world we need to explore all possible solutions not concentrate on one.

As I said earlier charging millions of cars on so called renewable energy when the current versions can't be relied on will be difficult if not impossible.

Oh and how do we power the trucks, what size electric engine will they require and how many batteries.

Also don't electric cars have alternators to recharge their batteries? If they do why is the range so short and if not why not?

 

Ken

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1 minute ago, KenK said:

Yes those wonderful Lithium batteries which caught fire on several aircraft. Sorry choosing one form of technology and ignoring others is self defeating. As a country indeed as a world we need to explore all possible solutions not concentrate on one.

As I said earlier charging millions of cars on so called renewable energy when the current versions can't be relied on will be difficult if not impossible.

Oh and how do we power the trucks, what size electric engine will they require and how many batteries.

Also don't electric cars have alternators to recharge their batteries? If they do why is the range so short and if not why not?

 

Ken

Apparently it's a different lithium chemistry,  not the blowing up type,  Dr Bob will enlighten beyond the not blowing up type

 

EV cars have regenerative breaking, an alternator would be something akin to a perpetual motion machine surely, anyway where would it go?

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4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I can't decide if you actually mean that or are just being silly!

 

 

My Father (in his 90's) asked me the same question. I explained that they had regenerative braking charging, so he suggested just use it going down hill and keep the batteries charged.

 

I cannot get him to keep his buggy charged up, and try and explain about FLA batteries and sulphation and he just glazes-over.

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

We have had a hydrogen powered narrow boat for years its moored up at Birmingham university a complete flop apparently.  When they get around hydrogen destroying the metal to store and deliver it batteries will be so far ahead that's it now it will be pointless! Universities know this but take the grants 

As you keep saying, so how come Riversimple have managed to produce 2 hydrogen fuel cell cars that have passed all the safety standards?
And how come there are hydrogen powered buses and trains operating in Holland and Germany?

Edited by Graham Davis

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1 hour ago, Up-Side-Down said:

I'll be genuinely fascinated to see what form of power predominates in 10 – 20 years time and happy to keep an open mind until then. Too many forms of transport are well down the hydrogen road to make me think that hydrogen won't be significant player though.

This is the problem if one unit of electric can move a car 100 miles it takes 4 units of electric to make the hydrogen to move a hydrogen car 100 miles, and then you have the distribution costs for the hydrogen normally as ammonia as its not really safe as Hydrogen.

So can you see why Hydrogen cars are completely failing [sales all over the world are dropping] and electric isnt

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45 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Apparently it's a different lithium chemistry,  not the blowing up type,  Dr Bob will enlighten beyond the not blowing up type

 

 

Fazakerly!

 

51 minutes ago, KenK said:

 Sorry choosing one form of technology and ignoring others is self defeating. As a country indeed as a world we need to explore all possible solutions

 

 

Who said we have 'chosen' one technology. All technologies are up for grabs. The best one will win. What is certain is that burning carbon rich fossil fuels ie diesel, petrol, fuel oil and coal has to be phased out. EVs are a solution but not the only one.

 

6 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

As you keep saying, so how come Riversimple have managed to produce 2 hydrogen fuel cell cars that have passed all the safety standards?

Hydrogen has been around as a fuel since the 80's. That is 40 years. BP/Shell/Exxon all have spent a fortune trying to get it to work. I know the resistance of the fossil fuel industry was huge but if Hydrogen had been good enough then the big oil majors would have pushed it. The fact is it wasnt as there has not been a good enough way to store it and supply it. I think we will have to wait for a better technological breakthrough to succeed EVs. Battery technology will improve exponentially now.

 

If anyone can think of an economic way of separating oxygen and hydrogen from water then please let me know.

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8 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

As you keep saying, so how come Riversimple have managed to produce 2 hydrogen fuel cell cars that have passed all the safety standards?

Graham I wouldnt call them cars and have you seen the price of them? not that you can buy them they are lease only, which is more expensive than a real electric car

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjNtZeunejnAhXGTsAKHXDlAvcQFjABegQIDBAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.renewableenergyfocus.com%2Fview%2F3157%2Fhydrogen-production-from-renewables%2F&usg=AOvVaw3O-Zy3jooY3drn4YnTfkyp

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8 minutes ago, peterboat said:

This is the problem if one unit of electric can move a car 100 miles it takes 4 units of electric to make the hydrogen to move a hydrogen car 100 miles, and then you have the distribution costs for the hydrogen normally as ammonia as its not really safe as Hydrogen.

So can you see why Hydrogen cars are completely failing [sales all over the world are dropping] and electric isnt

I can see how persuasive an argument that is ........... as long as battery technology does take a giant leap forward. At the risk of oversimplification, battery technology has always lagged behind amazing electric and electronic developments and has been seen as their Achilles heel. What is there to suggest that there will ever be any significant change here?

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1 hour ago, KenK said:

Also don't electric cars have alternators to recharge their batteries? If they do why is the range so short and if not why not?

 

 

Can I have some of what you are on?

Of course Electric only cars do not have alternators. Why would they. They dont have engines - as Tree monkey says they have regenerative braking.

Their range is short 'cause the manufacturers dont have a clue. Ford, VW , and all of the other big manufacturers smelt the coffee and start retrofiting their ICE cars with batteries and lecky motors. Never going to be clever. All a compromise. This is easy to see if you then look at Tesla's. I'm sorry to keep banging on about these but Musk saw an oportunity 10 years ago and started building the 'perfect' EV from scratch. All built about the battery requirements. After 10 years and 10 generations, we now have the M3 which has the whole floor as the battery tray and perfectly designed 'safe' Lithium cells. The car they sell is more a computer on wheels than a car. Tesla have more skills in common with Apple rather than VW. Most service requests from Tesla owners are fixed on line via softwared downloads. Tesla will be miles ahead of other car manufacturers until the others tear up the existing designs and start from scratch and build a new vehicle from the batteries up. Cost wise, there is no reason why costs of an EV cant be lower than an ICE and as battery cost reduces the forecourt price will drop.

The current M3 can do 300 mile range. Their new model next year will be able to do 400miles. I dont consider that 'short'. I only do 300 mile a day maybe a dozen times a year. Tesla have sorted the charging too!

Edited by Dr Bob
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21 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Interesting article...but its from 11 years ago.

 

Towards the end it asks a question and answers it:

So, with all these options for renewable hydrogen production and the significant, diverse renewable energy resources upon which we might draw worldwide, where do we stand in terms of the research and development (R&D) needed to address the challenges?

The answer is not clear,

 

11 years on, nothing has changed. No answers at all.

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