Banning House coal and wet wood

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

For me the range isn't the issue. I live on a boat and park my car near to wherever my boat is.  I have never seen a parking space near the canal where I could charge my car.  I also work.  My place of work doesn't have charging either.  So electric cars are dead in the water to me unless I'm provided with somewhere to charge it.

 

And £60k to buy it in the first place.....

 

 

[doratheexplorer]

29 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And £60k to buy it in the first place.....

 

 

I'm fairly sure you can buy electric cars for less than that

 

Edit:  I was right! https://www.gumtree.com/p/nissan/2012-nissan-leaf-24kwh-5dr/1366937480

£6k

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by doratheexplorer

[mark99]

In the energy conundrum one has to bring energy storage into consideration.

 

If everyone switches to heat pumps and Teslas, how do you manage demand when it's dark and no wind?

 

Converting excess solar and wind to H2 and piping it away via a gas blend in pre-existing pipes is a way <as said before> as there is a national network of gas infrastructure already there. The gas network does have huge storage ability. From mass storage units (seasonal storage) to "line pack" where-by excess gas pressure is deliberately packed into local pipelines at times of high demand and slowly allowed to be released via pressure decay in the di-urnal cycles. London has a massive single pipeline** line pack around it's north where the gas cycles up and down every day by a large amount.

 

Huge battery banks is another. S.T.O.R power stations running on what? diesel? Nat Gas? blended gas (H2 and Nat Gas?) Biofuels?

 

It's easy to swat away concepts in simplistic terms but the bigger picture presents more facets to be considered.

 

 

** Stretches from way west of London, arches across the north of city and ends down near the Thames estuary.

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by mark99

[doratheexplorer]

7 minutes ago, mark99 said:

In the energy conundrum one has to bring energy storage into consideration.

 

If everyone switches to heat pumps and Teslas, how do you manage demand when it's dark and no wind?

 

Converting excess solar and wind to H2 and piping it away via a gas blend in pre-existing pipes is a way <as said before> as there is a national network of gas infrastructure already there. The gas network does have huge storage ability. From mass storage units (seasonal storage) to "line pack" where-by excess gas pressure is deliberately packed into local pipelines at times of high demand and slowly allowed to be released via pressure decay in the di-urnal cycles. London has a massive single pipeline line pack around it's north where the gas cycles up and down every day by a large amount.

 

Huge battery banks is another. S.T.O.R power stations running on what? diesel? Nat Gas? blended gas (H2 and Nat Gas?) Biofuels?

 

 

 

 

I saw a great idea around this on tv.  Using hills and mountains as giant batteries.  When the wind blows and the sun shines, excess energy is sent to push these 'trains' up tracks to the tops of hills.  Potential energy is therefore stored in those trains.  When the energy is needed, the trains whizz back down the hill, making kinetic energy which is harnessed and used to help us watch tv in our homes.  No emmisions.  Safe.  And fun to watch!

 

Ingenious!

[mark99]

13 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I saw a great idea around this on tv.  Using hills and mountains as giant batteries.  When the wind blows and the sun shines, excess energy is sent to push these 'trains' up tracks to the tops of hills.  Potential energy is therefore stored in those trains.  When the energy is needed, the trains whizz back down the hill, making kinetic energy which is harnessed and used to help us watch tv in our homes.  No emmisions.  Safe.  And fun to watch!

 

Ingenious!

 

 

Sort of happens in Wales already. Dinorwig Power Station.

 

They pump water uphill into a storage reservoir using excess or cheaper leccky and drop the water downhill via a turbine at times of high demand. It's been there for donkeys years.

 

My personal favourite is tidal barrage - predicable albeit with environmental costs.

Edited February 25, 2020 by mark99

[doratheexplorer]

2 minutes ago, mark99 said:

 

 

Sort of happens in Wales already. Dinorwig Power Station.

 

They pump water uphill into a storage reservoir using excess or cheaper leccky and drop the water downhill via a turbine at times of high demand. It's been there for donkeys years.

 

My personal favourite is tidal barrage - predicable albeit with environmental costs.

Yeah that's just as good really.  The trains looked fun though.

 

I suppose in flat places like Holland you could hoist things up on big cranes and let them plummet back down!

[Chewbacka]

17 minutes ago, mark99 said:

 

 

Sort of happens in Wales already. Dinorwig Power Station.

 

They pump water uphill into a storage reservoir using excess or cheaper leccky and drop the water downhill via a turbine at times of high demand. It's been there for donkeys years.

 

My personal favourite is tidal barrage - predicable albeit with environmental costs.

Tidal barrage sounds good, but will often not be available at the time you need it, and on somewhere like the Seven I think the basin above the dam will quickly silt up.  Storage systems need to be quick to turn on, like pumped storage and ‘railway’, or H2 powering big engine generators.  And before anyone says ‘none of these are efficient’, efficiency is not what is required, it is the ability to release stored energy on demand.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Chewbacka

[mark99]

12 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Tidal barrage sounds good, but will often not be available at the time you need it, and on somewhere like the Seven I think the basin above the dam will quickly silt up.  Storage systems need to be quick to turn on, like pumped storage and ‘railway’, or H2 powering big engine generators.  And before anyone says ‘none of these are efficient’, efficiency is not what is required, it is the ability to release stored energy on demand.

Use leccky in barrage off peak to generate H2. 

[Dr Bob]

11 minutes ago, mark99 said:

Use leccky in barrage off peak to generate H2. 

What is the obsession with hydrogen? You do want efficiency as that then means you save the most power. Hydrogen manufacture is not efficient. If you were to make hydrogen, then it would be better to send it to a refinery to use it to make the road fuels more hydrogen rich via the hydrocrackers hence less emissions from the road fuels. Refineries are usually always looking for more hydrogen but it costs too much to buy in.

Use the spare lecky to do what peeps are saying....like trains up mountains or water powered mountains.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

For me the range isn't the issue. I live on a boat and park my car near to wherever my boat is.  I have never seen a parking space near the canal where I could charge my car.  I also work.  My place of work doesn't have charging either.  So electric cars are dead in the water to me unless I'm provided with somewhere to charge it.

There are places to charge them, public charge points what we want and what is going to happen is up to us https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjJu8zXtuznAhXHbsAKHfD0D-AQFjABegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fopenchargemap.org%2F&usg=AOvVaw25rpKbAHEjggfPz5Zy0L5M

 

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And £60k to buy it in the first place.....

 

 

Its a long time since I bought a new car I let companies do that and they take the hit, secondhand electric cars are available with enough range for most people

[MtB]

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

I'm fairly sure you can buy electric cars for less than that

 

Edit:  I was right! https://www.gumtree.com/p/nissan/2012-nissan-leaf-24kwh-5dr/1366937480

£6k

 

 

No I meant the Tesla S that peterboat is always prattling on about...

 

 

[mark99]

8 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

What is the obsession with hydrogen? You do want efficiency as that then means you save the most power. Hydrogen manufacture is not efficient. If you were to make hydrogen, then it would be better to send it to a refinery to use it to make the road fuels more hydrogen rich via the hydrocrackers hence less emissions from the road fuels. Refineries are usually always looking for more hydrogen but it costs too much to buy in.

Use the spare lecky to do what peeps are saying....like trains up mountains or water powered mountains.

I know that but solve the storage issue. The national gas network is already there. Outside every house. Not everyone has a reservoir at the end of the street.

Edited February 25, 2020 by mark99

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

No I meant the Tesla S that peterboat is always prattling on about...

 

 

That can be bought secondhand as well if you need the range and want want free supercharging

[doratheexplorer]

9 minutes ago, peterboat said:

There are places to charge them, public charge points what we want and what is going to happen is up to us https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjJu8zXtuznAhXHbsAKHfD0D-AQFjABegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fopenchargemap.org%2F&usg=AOvVaw25rpKbAHEjggfPz5Zy0L5M

 

Until there's a wholesale roll out of charging points on every built up street in the country, I'm not going to be interested.

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

What is the obsession with hydrogen? You do want efficiency as that then means you save the most power. Hydrogen manufacture is not efficient. If you were to make hydrogen, then it would be better to send it to a refinery to use it to make the road fuels more hydrogen rich via the hydrocrackers hence less emissions from the road fuels. Refineries are usually always looking for more hydrogen but it costs too much to buy in.

Use the spare lecky to do what peeps are saying....like trains up mountains or water powered mountains.

The thing is Bob the government pays to turn off wind turbines so instead of doing that its easier to make Hydrogen, which you quite rightly say is a valuable product, now adding to the gas grid cleans up emissions, sending to the refineries does the same but send out the wrong message that its ok to use ICE vehicles. Hydrogen trains are pointless because its easier to just use electric ones, lorries and buses would be a better use of it but the gas grid is there already

2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Until there's a wholesale roll out of charging points on every built up street in the country, I'm not going to be interested.

Which is ok but at some point you will have no choice

[doratheexplorer]

6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The thing is Bob the government pays to turn off wind turbines so instead of doing that its easier to make Hydrogen, which you quite rightly say is a valuable product, now adding to the gas grid cleans up emissions, sending to the refineries does the same but send out the wrong message that its ok to use ICE vehicles. Hydrogen trains are pointless because its easier to just use electric ones, lorries and buses would be a better use of it but the gas grid is there already

Which is ok but at some point you will have no choice

I know.  But I would expect charging points to be everywhere by then.  There are millions of people who don't have driveways in which to install a charger.  Not just apartments but all the older terraced properties too.  Range is also increasing.  In ten to fifteen years time I'm sure I'll be looking at an electric car with a 500 mile range (if I want) and plenty of quick charging options.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

Yeah that's just as good really.  The trains looked fun though.

 

I suppose in flat places like Holland you could hoist things up on big cranes and let them plummet back down!

Hoisting big blocks of stuff up and letting them fall down is an actual thing for storing power. No joke.

Seehttps://www.gravitricity.com/ and https://heindl-energy.com/

[doratheexplorer]

3 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Hoisting big blocks of stuff up and letting them fall down is an actual thing for storing power. No joke.

Seehttps://www.gravitricity.com/ and https://heindl-energy.com/

Great minds think alike!

[peterboat]

9 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I know.  But I would expect charging points to be everywhere by then.  There are millions of people who don't have driveways in which to install a charger.  Not just apartments but all the older terraced properties too.  Range is also increasing.  In ten to fifteen years time I'm sure I'll be looking at an electric car with a 500 mile range (if I want) and plenty of quick charging options.

I think car ownership will drop in the future, self driving taxis that charge by induction when not in use, most cars spend the day doing nothing and costing a great deal of money! My sister who works for the council now works from home more than work, and my youngest daughter who works for leeds uni is the same, some things are changing for the better

[ditchcrawler]

8 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 My sister who works for the council now works from home more than work, and my youngest daughter who works for leeds uni is the same, some things are changing for the better

We are turning the clock back a few hundred years when weavers, spinners, and lots of others worked from home. It must be better than traveling a couple of hours to work each day no matter what form of transport you use.

Edited February 25, 2020 by ditchcrawler

[doratheexplorer]

15 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I think car ownership will drop in the future, self driving taxis that charge by induction when not in use, most cars spend the day doing nothing and costing a great deal of money! My sister who works for the council now works from home more than work, and my youngest daughter who works for leeds uni is the same, some things are changing for the better

And a good thing too.  A few years ago in Birmingham there was this city wide street-side car hire thing called car2go where you accessed it through an app.  The idea was great.  The implementation was terrible though.  But if something like this was done properly, I'd probably look at giving up a car and simply picking up one as and when I need it.

 

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/car2go-scrapped-year-after-setting-7167811

Edited February 25, 2020 by doratheexplorer

[nb Innisfree]

23 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Hoisting big blocks of stuff up and letting them fall down is an actual thing for storing power. No joke.

Seehttps://www.gravitricity.com/ and https://heindl-energy.com/

Just a thought: If enough groundwater could be drained into an empty vessel that would then be the weight, once it reaches the bottom it would empty and rise back unaided, sort of an addition running parallel to the fixed weight setup. 

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, nb Innisfree said:

Just a thought: If enough groundwater could be drained into an empty vessel that would then be the weight, once it reaches the bottom it would empty and rise back unaided, sort of an addition running parallel to the fixed weight setup. 

Or just a water turbine or wheel

[nb Innisfree]

17 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I think car ownership will drop in the future, self driving taxis that charge by induction when not in use, most cars spend the day doing nothing and costing a great deal of money! My sister who works for the council now works from home more than work, and my youngest daughter who works for leeds uni is the same, some things are changing for the better

The only downside I can think of is the lack of spontaneity in stepping out of your door and straight into your car whenever you decide, room for both I think depending on your circumstances.