Banning House coal and wet wood

[mark99]

5 hours ago, IanD said:

6x the energy (running) cost of a heat pump...

 

 

Maybe they could use the produced H2 to power the additional electricity generation plant... to produce more H2. 

 

Seriously however - there is a lot of money being thrown at this** - sometimes political decisions and pressures make NO business sense.

 

** The cynics may say with every grant programme, you get a high proportion of people only too willing spot an opportunity to spend it to excess.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by mark99

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, mark99 said:

 

 

Maybe they could use the produced H2 to power the additional electricity generation plant... to produce more H2. 

 

Seriously however - there is a lot of money being thrown at this** - sometimes political decisions and pressures make NO business sense.

 

** The cynics may say with every grant programme, you get a high proportion of people only too willing spot an opportunity to spend it to excess.

 

 

We have had that round here with small wind turbines, There are 3 across the mash from me that haven't turned in two years, up the field there are another three, one recently replaced and the other two not moved for over a vear. The only way they made money was from government handouts

[Dr Bob]

7 minutes ago, mark99 said:

 

 

Maybe they could use the produced H2 to power the additional electricity generation plant... to produce more H2. 

 

Seriously however - there is a lot of money being thrown at this** - sometimes political decisions and pressures make NO business sense.

 

 

 

 

I thought we were talking about hydrogen, not Nitrous oxide.

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, mark99 said:

 

 

Maybe they could use the produced H2 to power the additional electricity generation plant... to produce more H2. 

 

Seriously however - there is a lot of money being thrown at this** - sometimes political decisions and pressures make NO business sense.

 

** The cynics may say with every grant programme, you get a high proportion of people only too willing spot an opportunity to spend it to excess.

 

 

Both my daughters work at leeds uni, and big money is being spent on Hydrogen, both say that its a waste of time as its so expensive to make, and not clean unless by electrolysis by wind and solar.  this brings us back to why these ever increasing sized windfarms are getting built, instead of being paid to turn them off they will make hydrogen to be added to the gas grid cleaning it up, also it might be used in transport but that is another very expensive ball game

Edited February 24, 2020 by peterboat

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

  they will make hydrogen to be added to the gas grid cleaning it up,   

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/51995.pdf

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/51995.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 Jan 2020 - UK's first grid-injected hydrogen trials begin in Staffordshire. A pilot project injecting zero-carbon hydrogen into an existing gas network is now fully operational, the consortium of organisations behind the initiative have announced.

 

HyDeploy: UK Gas Grid Injection of Hydrogen in Full Operation

www.itm-power.com › news › hydeploy-uk-gas-grid-injection-of-hyd...

 

2 Jan 2020 - HyDeploy: UK Gas Grid Injection of Hydrogen in Full Operation ... the UK's first pilot project to inject zero carbon hydrogen into a gas network to heat ... Laboratory tests were carried out on a range of gas appliances, as well as ...

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 Jan 2020 - UK's first grid-injected hydrogen trials begin in Staffordshire. A pilot project injecting zero-carbon hydrogen into an existing gas network is now fully operational, the consortium of organisations behind the initiative have announced.

 

HyDeploy: UK Gas Grid Injection of Hydrogen in Full Operation

www.itm-power.com › news › hydeploy-uk-gas-grid-injection-of-hyd...

 

2 Jan 2020 - HyDeploy: UK Gas Grid Injection of Hydrogen in Full Operation ... the UK's first pilot project to inject zero carbon hydrogen into a gas network to heat ... Laboratory tests were carried out on a range of gas appliances, as well as ...

 

All part of the Clean Air 2050 project.

Manufacture of Hydrogen on Teeside, Ammonia in Oxfordshire and feed it into the Gas main in Manchester / Liverpool.

 

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

All part of the Clean Air 2050 project.

Manufacture of Hydrogen on Teeside, Ammonia in Oxfordshire and feed it into the Gas main in Manchester / Liverpool.

 

You put that up earlier Alan but the disbelievers soon forget

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, peterboat said:

You put that up earlier Alan but the disbelievers soon forget

 

 

I also posted this :

 

[IanD]

<sigh> yes you can use electricity to generate hydrogen and feed it into the gas grid, to keep inefficient gas appliances like boilers going in the short term. The overall efficiency of doing this is so stupidly low that nobody would see it as a serious long-term solution, it's a short-term sticking plaster.

 

In the long term using the same power to drive heat pumps instead of gas boilers is at least 5x more efficient -- in other words, cheaper.

 

Just because something is proposed and people or companies back it doesn't mean that it makes any sense, environmentally or commercially. Feeding hydrogen into the gas grid is exactly this...

[Dr Bob]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

<sigh> yes you can use electricity to generate hydrogen and feed it into the gas grid, to keep inefficient gas appliances like boilers going in the short term. The overall efficiency of doing this is so stupidly low that nobody would see it as a serious long-term solution, it's a short-term sticking plaster.

 

In the long term using the same power to drive heat pumps instead of gas boilers is at least 5x more efficient -- in other words, cheaper.

 

Just because something is proposed and people or companies back it doesn't mean that it makes any sense, environmentally or commercially. Feeding hydrogen into the gas grid is exactly this...

Fully agree with Ian but coming at it from a different angle.

I'm out of date with current petrochemicals practices but producing hydrogen to burn is crazy. I doubt much has changed in the last 10 years but the price of high purity hydrogen was circa £500/te vs natural gas which was £100 ish. Hydrogen is a prized feedstock for refineries and chemical plants and you dont go burning it with gas. Maybe if the hydrogen is not that pure (ie contaminated with `CO - carbon monoxide - a typical contaminate as Hydrogen is often made from syn-gas ie H2/CO mixture) then the price is not that high and you could afford to burn it BUT they are not going to put CO in our natural gas ...are they?

Hydrogen is a key feedstock for refineries to make 'good' road fuels...ie in hydrocrackers which are used to hydrogenate the components of diesel to get a better cetane rating and get rid of sulphur.

 

[Onionman]

19 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

We use about 9kWh per day, (gas heating and hob), so an extra 7kWh would be an increase of almost 80%.

 

I agree that business use wouldn't change as a consequence, and that some houses are all electric, but I'm not sure 10% is realistic.

 

I do recall there being talk of not enough capacity over recent years, and this before any real talk about 100% of vehicles being electric.

 

Unfortunately, I think these guys will tell us what they want us to hear, until such a time as they have no choice. let's face it, the Head of the National Grid couldn't be heard to say that there isn't enough capacity, particularly with a Dominic Cummings government.

 

To summarise, you know more about electricity demand (10% isn't realistic) than the head of the National Grid and/or he's lying (he's telling us what he wants us to hear). Based on "talk".

Edited February 24, 2020 by Onionman

[Richard10002]

4 hours ago, peterboat said:

You live in a dream world. over 30% of electric produced is by registered wind turbines

I said that I dont know, didnt I?

 

For some reason, you told me to Google it, despite having the answers at your fingertips, and I found some really "huge" numbers for electricity generation in other countries, hence my response.

 

Unfortunately, your history is a mixture of fact and assertive bluster, so it is hard to tell when you are producing one or the other. It seems that you may be correct with wind farms, but you weren't with respect to refineries.

 

I may have a look at the link that you have eventually provided, and will happily acknowledge the facts.... whatever they are

 

 

BTW: I am delighted that renewables are contributing more to our electricity supplies. It has always concerned me that using electric, (in cars for example), merely moves the point of pollution.

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Richard10002

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, mark99 said:

 

I provided a link showing, in real time, what wind and solar is being used in the UK (and other countries).

 

Presently, the baseload of renewables is growing but at this time you need instant access local power (typically gas fired 3 mins to pres-start to generatation feed in) to facilitate the growth in solar and wind base load. (Electrical load Peak Shaving or Strategic Online Reserve).

 

My CV has 28 commissioned UK STOR power station projects listed so far and 5 more on the books including an experimental one just about to go online. Is that a good enough number for you?

I wasn't asking "you" for a link. I was suggesting that Peter might find it easier to provide his link, rather than sending those of us, who have less knowledge in the area, of to Google and reinvent the wheel.

[Onionman]

Here's a useful site if you're ever interested in where your power at this moment is coming from.

 

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

[Richard10002]

23 minutes ago, Onionman said:

 

To summarise, you know more about electricity demand (10% isn't realistic) than the head of the National Grid and/or he's lying (he's telling us what he wants us to hear). Based on "talk".

No, I just manipulated a few numbers....... and Probably

[mark99]

Consider excess power from wind or solar. Use to make H2. Store. Blend with N Gas to displace some  H gas producing % greenhouse CO2 without having to convert grid or gas burning appliances as it's a blend.

 

So we have excess energy in times of high wind or lots of sun and no demand, that cannot easily be stored, making energy H2, that can be.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by mark99

[bizzard]

5 hours ago, bizzard said:

Hello.  Mrs Pushit here, Mr Bizzards secretary at the Clockbatdrill car Co.  Mr Bizzard has just telephoned me from the patents office to relay this information to you all to relieve you and the whole wide world of the suspense caused by the delay. His new and revolutionary optional extra add on for EV, Hybrid, Lowbrid and the Clockbatdrill car. Pendulums. Pendulums dangling from the roof inside the car. ''Why pendulums'' yoo may ask. Because if they can dangle freely from mini constant velocity joints which will enable them to swing unhindered anywhere in a circular arc. Surrounded with lots of little dynamos which will generate charging currant for the batteries. The pendulum will continually swing around from the perpendicular  whilst the car is in motion, swing forwards when braking, backwards when accellerating, forwards going down hill, backwards going uphill, side to side when cornering, in fact the pendulum wil be continually in motion swinging about on all points of the compass generating electricity to charge the batteries while the car is underway, hence the totally unlimited milage range without stopping your cars will now be able to do, something that the likes of the Yankie Tesla's and others are unable to achieve, he! he! he!. For tall drivers lots of short pendulums can dangle from the roof, as the single longer one would whack the the back of the drivers head under braking and while going downhill and in the ear whilst cornering on a downhill gradient.

  That's all the information I have recieved from Mr Bizzard because he ran out of pennies in the public telephone box, but I daresay he'll continue with the description of his wonderful invention on his return to our factory.

  Thanks for looking at this.  Regards Mrs Pushit.

Good evening folks. Just returned from the patents office, delay caused by both of the electric trains breakimg down that I used.

  However Conny that's my secretary.  Mrs Constance Pushit tells me she has aquainted you all and outlined the works of the optional extra in reasonable detail for which I am very grateful to her. I have not much more to add really until the cars go into full production.  Two points I'd like to mention though. Cat flaps will be installed into the lower panels of the car doors, for the purpose of assisting your car up steep hills. The proceedure will be. As the car begins to slow up on the hill the driver and any passengers will poke a leg out through the cat flaps in order to assist the uphill climb by sort of scooting the car along by a foot on the road surface. For this reason I recommend that folk buy the four door model instead of the two door and to carry three passengers if possible, after all four legs are better than two, just thought I'd mention that tiny flaw in the design. The second point is that I'm having all the little electrical components like all the little dynamos made in Japan, as I think they are the best in the world at making small electrical stuff, they can even make model live steam locomotives in Z gauge!!! The honorable Mr Yoki, Oki Doki owner of a big electronic firm in Honshoe has agleed to make these bits for me which I will couple to the pendulums

with Meccano parts.  Looking forward to flogging you all lots of these cars.  Regards,   Mr Bizzard.

[Peter X]

Bizz, I think your potential supplier in Japan might be better named Yoko, Oh no!

And rather than go with the dangerous sounding idea of people poking their legs out through catflaps in car doors, perhaps Mrs Pushit's name should inspire your approach to the problem of efficient car propulsion?

I don't recall ever seeing Fred Flintstone driving uphill, but the city of Bedrock looked flat to me.

 

I've been on an electric train that broke down, or rather got halted for a while by a snowdrift in a cutting near Brockley (SE4 not the vegetable) in snowy weather, one evening in  early1991 I think it was.  It got moving in the end. Maybe they never should have closed the Croydon canal, but that would have been a long slow commute home from London Bridge for me with the need to get to the canal (train just to New Cross Gate?), then do all those locks up to the summit to reach Anerley. Now I've just had an off topic idea worthy of Bizzard; rebuild the Croydon canal alongside the railway to act as drainage for it, just as Standedge tunnel on the HNC helps to drain water that gets through the rocks into the railway tunnel alongside it (so I learnt in July). 

[TheBiscuits]

18 minutes ago, Peter X said:

just as Standedge tunnel on the HNC helps to drain water that gets through the rocks into the railway tunnel alongside it (so I learnt in July). 

 

That torrent is usually a dribble down the wall, apparently.  It punched us so hard into the side I thought I was going to be picking bits of drinking glasses off the galley floor.  The photo does not really do it justice - that's a storm drain pipe that is about 18" diameter, and was shooting a solid lump 4 feet across a 7 foot tunnel!

 

 

 

Edit to add:

MrsBiscuits isn't daft.  She saw the big lump of water approaching and hid inside the boat with the doors shut!

Edited February 24, 2020 by TheBiscuits
spellink

[Peter X]

Way off topic, but I remember Standedge tunnel being not a nice place. Very long, with irregular walls, sticking out in lots of places, sometimes great chunks of rock which really want to scrape your boat. The inflow of water from the railway tunnel is a relatively minor problem. Beware!

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, Peter X said:

Way off topic, but I remember Standedge tunnel being not a nice place. Very long, with irregular walls, sticking out in lots of places, sometimes great chunks of rock which really want to scrape your boat. The inflow of water from the railway tunnel is a relatively minor problem. Beware!

In fairness Peter, you were having much worse problems than the geology/hydrology that day/week/fortnight!

 

 

 

[doratheexplorer]

On 21/02/2020 at 15:46, zenataomm said:

 

Contradicted yourself within an hour.

No contradiction here.

[IanD]

7 hours ago, Peter X said:

Way off topic, but I remember Standedge tunnel being not a nice place. Very long, with irregular walls, sticking out in lots of places, sometimes great chunks of rock which really want to scrape your boat. The inflow of water from the railway tunnel is a relatively minor problem. Beware!

Funny, those are pretty much the same reasons why I love Standedge... ?

[doratheexplorer]

On 22/02/2020 at 23:12, peterboat said:

You do make me laugh hydrogen for cars is already dead in the water over 30% of electric is already made by wind turbines, and hydrogen is very dangerous it has the ability to destroy the metals used to store and supply it! The new Tesla's will have 400 mile range with batteries warranties for a million miles! For 99% of the population it's enough 

For me the range isn't the issue. I live on a boat and park my car near to wherever my boat is.  I have never seen a parking space near the canal where I could charge my car.  I also work.  My place of work doesn't have charging either.  So electric cars are dead in the water to me unless I'm provided with somewhere to charge it.