Jump to content

Banning House coal and wet wood


dor

Featured Posts

9 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

The average mileage for a car is circa 10,000 miles per year or 800 ish per month. For a Tesla that is 3 full charges - ie 3 nights in a month charging. Each charge is around 70KWatt hr, so in other words 210 KWatt hr/month ie on average 7KWhr each night ie £1 per night.

That sounds like about a 20% increase in electrickerty demand for domestic (assuming 1 car per household)  but when considering business usage, I can see where he gets his 10% from.

Doesnt sound too much like a problem?

I found this https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/816012/Panel_of_Technical_Experts_report_2019.pdf

Capture.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Remember we are all going to have to change to electric heating as well at some point, so unless the builders up their game on heat loss efficiency that will also be more strain on the grid system

 

 

I was about to make this point myself. The home heating demand on the National Grid once we switch over to leccy heating I think might dwarf the demand from electric cars. 

 

Typical home has gas heating rated at about 20kW. Probably only 25% of this is being used during mild winter (i.e. most of the winter) but that is still 120kWhrs a day. 

 

However, the leccy technology likely to be installed to replace gas boilers is heat pumps. Heat pumps use leccy to harvest heat energy from the outside air so achieve a typical efficiency of 300%. So a het pump delivering say 12kW of heating into a house will be drawing 4kW of leccy, ALL THE TIME during cold snaps. 

 

The other technology in the running is hydrogen. The heating industry press can't make up its mind. We see adjacent articles in the various comics, one stating with total certainty that hydrogen gas boilers are the future, and the other saying heat pumps are the future. Bottom line is both have major problems in implementation.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

 

Unfortunately, this one doesnt come out on the side of the 'greens'.

On a well run oil refinery, there is a lot of excess heat. Many of the processes generate heat ie the Cat Cracker etc. This heat is recovered in the form of high pressure and ultra high pressure steam and used for other processes. However most refineries have a big excess of this hot steam. The clever ones, therefore install a combined heating and power plant to generate electricity to the network. The ex BP refinery in Grangemouth....now in part Chinese ownership...now exports more lecky to the network than it imports! Effectively this power is being generated as a by product of burning natural gas so is actually fairly green compared to oil or coal fired power stations.

I think we would have a serious reduction in refineries though a ban on single use plastic would be a good start as they are made from oil as well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I was about to make this point myself. The home heating demand on the National Grid once we switch over to leccy heating I think might dwarf the demand from electric cars. 

 

Typical home has gas heating rated at about 20kW. Probably only 25% of this is being used during mild winter (i.e. most of the winter) but that is still 120kWhrs a day. 

 

However, the leccy technology likely to be installed to replace gas boilers is heat pumps. Heat pumps use leccy to harvest heat energy from the outside air so achieve a typical efficiency of 300%. So a het pump delivering say 12kW of heating into a house will be drawing 4kW of leccy, ALL THE TIME during cold snaps. 

 

The other technology in the running is hydrogen. The heating industry press can't make up its mind. We see adjacent articles in the various comics, one stating with total certainty that hydrogen gas boilers are the future, and the other saying heat pumps are the future. Bottom line is both have major problems in implementation.

 

 

Until the issue of hydrogen destroying metal is sorted pure hydrogen boilers are a long way away, they are putting 20% in I was reading with no problems on test, cleans up the gas no end. Its a bit like diesels if you add propane to it at the manifold, if really helps power and reduces emissions dramatically, I have done this in the past to good effect the amounts are very small and it helps fuel consumption as well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

However attractive it looks for fast-filling, the reason hydrogen is a non-starter is simple -- whatever the energy source (fossil or renewable), it takes at least twice as much of it to power a vehicle using hydrogen as the energy storage than it does using batteries. This is not something that technology can fix, it's basic thermodynamics. It's true whether the hydrogen is generated offshore and piped onland to be stored, or generated onshore and distributed to vehicles from there.

 

So in the short-term using hydrogen means burning twice as much fossil fuel as for BEV to generate the electricity to make the hydrogen (very bad), in the long term it means needing twice as many windfarms or solar panels (pretty bad) -- these aren't free to build and take up a lot of space because renewable energy density is low, so nobody will build twice as many to supply hydrogen vehicles as they need to supply BEV.

 

This is true no matter how many small companies (or large ones like Toyota) trumpet about how they have this wonderful vehicle that can be filled up like a petrol vehicle and only emits water vapour -- both true, but completely ignoring the economic elephant in the room.

 

Yes there are issues with intermittent power generation from wind and solar, energy storage, battery capacity and recycling, grid capacity -- but however difficult it is to do, all this *will* be solved for road transport because they *have* to be, there's no alternative if a climate catastrophe is to be avoided. Compared to this boats on canals -- after all, the purpose of this forum -- is dead easy to solve, the problems are far smaller both because of lower energy usage and number of boats and far easier battery weight/volume restrictions.

 

Worldwide shipping is a bigger problem but not one that can be ignored because the pressure to reduce CO2 emissions will be relentless and apply to this as well. Maybe the solution is massive batteries, lower speeds (four times lower energy needed at 8 knots instead of 16 knots), and higher shipping costs as a result -- will it really kill the economy if it takes a few weeks extra and costs a few dollars more to ship a TV from China to the west? Like air travel, shipping is currently cheaper than it should be because the CO2 cost is not costed in; in future air travel will have to cost more and so will goods shipped across the world, these are prices which will have to be paid to reduce CO2, life can't carry on as before.

 

And in all cases there will be exceptions made for special cases which have negligible overall CO2 impact like classic cars, steam engines and boats, traditional narrowboats and so on, because banning them would cause public uproar (because people love old stuff) and have no beneficial effect.

 

So I suggest people stop worrying about how the canals or their boats will be killed off or how difficult this will all be or how long it will take or how much it will cost, because all this has to and will be solved to fix far bigger problems with the world. When this has happened -- maybe fifteen years time, maybe longer, but it'll be the same time it happens for cars and buses and trucks and ships -- we'll all be cruising round the canals (or living on them) in our silent non-polluting electric boats and wondering how on earth we put up with noisy smelly polluting diesels for all those years. I'm looking forward to being able to waft along in silence without having to feed and water a horse...

 

There will be a few traditionalists who hold out with RN2s and so on, just like there are with steam boats (or steam engines) or even horses, and they should be cheered for keeping traditional transport methods which give people a lot of pleasure alive, however like steam locos (or boats) today they will be a much-loved but tiny part of the boating scene.

 

All in all I see this as being a positive thing for the canals, not a negative one -- it's likely to increase their popularity with holidaymakers and make life easier and more pleasant for those who live on them.

 

Welcome to the 21st century ?

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I was about to make this point myself. The home heating demand on the National Grid once we switch over to leccy heating I think might dwarf the demand from electric cars. 

 

Typical home has gas heating rated at about 20kW. Probably only 25% of this is being used during mild winter (i.e. most of the winter) but that is still 120kWhrs a day. 

 

However, the leccy technology likely to be installed to replace gas boilers is heat pumps. Heat pumps use leccy to harvest heat energy from the outside air so achieve a typical efficiency of 300%. So a het pump delivering say 12kW of heating into a house will be drawing 4kW of leccy, ALL THE TIME during cold snaps. 

 

The other technology in the running is hydrogen. The heating industry press can't make up its mind. We see adjacent articles in the various comics, one stating with total certainty that hydrogen gas boilers are the future, and the other saying heat pumps are the future. Bottom line is both have major problems in implementation.

 

 

Hydrogen gas boilers have an overall performance coefficient of about 0.5, starting from the (renewable?) electricity needed to generate the hydrogen. Heat pumps have a COP of about 3, or even more for the most advanced models. So hydrogen is a non-starter for the same reason as for transport (lousy overall efficiency) except that the difference is far worse compared to heat pumps (6x) than BEV (2x). In the end it all comes down to the money and energy requirements, and hydrogen loses every time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, bizzard said:

Clockwork will be the power of the future. Springs can be wound by either Workzone cordless drill from Aldi, or for excercise which folk need very badly with a huge key or a Stanley hand drill. Women can use the Stanley breast drill. Broken springs, pinions and governors ect replacement will be properly described with pictures in your Haynes workshop manual.  Cordless drills will be recharged whilst driving along by what is known as ''The bump method'' the cars motion of jogging up and down over potholes and sleeping policemen and women. For fast boost charging of the drill battery one simply drives along bouncing in and out of all the drainholes grids along the kirb, by useing the bump method over the drain holes continuousely with the cordless drill attached in the keyhole you have, in effect as well as clockwork motor also electric to power the wheels. With this cutting edge form of ccccclockwork technology car propulsion with the simple aforesaid winding up aids will ensure that you will always arrive at your destination. A little 3 in 1 oil will need to be applied to the clockwork motion every two milliom miles. This form of lowbrid car will be called ''The Clockbatdrill car'' and will be very cheap.    Tesla's and the likes, we s--t em.         Bizzard, missmanaging indirector and inventor of the Clockbatdrill lowbrid car company.

An optional extra for the above mode of drive or for any other form, electric drive, or indeed even for Hybrids or Lowbrids, an extra which will extend the duration of the vehicle mileage, in fact make it endless. You will be able, with this extra to go anywhere, hundreds, thousands of miles without having to stop to charge up batteries and all that nonsense, and will of course allieviate the driver of all the worry and angziety of conking out, dribbling to a standstill with flat batteries in the middle of nowhere in the dead of night in a hurricane and forgotten their mackintosh, umbrella and torch and still wearing carpet slippers. A terrible nuisance wouldn't it be. This optional extra although optional will become a BIG must have. I will not describe yet what this revolutionary optional extra is, for fear of that Yankie Tesla mob over the pond try to pinch my invention before I've perfected and patented it.  Just a little hint and clue for you all. It is regenerative, Cuckoo clocks.     Mr Bizzard, missmanaging, indirector, Clockbatdrill car Co.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, IanD said:

Hydrogen gas boilers have an overall performance coefficient of about 0.5, starting from the (renewable?) electricity needed to generate the hydrogen. Heat pumps have a COP of about 3, or even more for the most advanced models. So hydrogen is a non-starter for the same reason as for transport (lousy overall efficiency) except that the difference is far worse compared to heat pumps (6x) than BEV (2x). In the end it all comes down to the money and energy requirements, and hydrogen loses every time.

If electricity is generated from surplus wind/solar generation which would otherwise not be used it is a fairly efficient method of storing energy rather than batteries etc.  So hydrogen will be used either for electricity generation on still cloudy days and or for space heating or specialised transport.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, IanD said:

will it really kill the economy if it takes a few weeks extra and costs a few dollars more to ship a TV from China to the west? Like air travel, shipping is currently cheaper than it should be because the CO2 cost is not costed in; in future air travel will have to cost more and so will goods shipped across the world, these are prices which will have to be paid to reduce CO2, life can't carry on as before.

In a similar vein :

 

In the cold, my fingers were struggling to grip the tab on my coat zip, so I looked on Amazon for some of the 'bit of moulded plastic on a short string' Zip tab extenders.

I found some at 11p for 10 pieces. shipped from China no postage cost.

 

They duly arrived a couple of weeks later, 10 'zip-tabs', in a little 'Jiffy bag' and posted from China - Sum total 11p.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

If electricity is generated from surplus wind/solar generation which would otherwise not be used it is a fairly efficient method of storing energy rather than batteries etc.  So hydrogen will be used either for electricity generation on still cloudy days and or for space heating or specialised transport.

It's 6x less efficient to generate hydrogen and then burn it in a boiler than it is to store the energy in batteries (or other efficient storage methods like pumped storage) and drive a heat pump, . It's 2x less efficient if it's just used for energy storage and then for transport.

 

Just because the energy isn't needed when it's generated (at least, locally) doesn't mean that it makes sense to use it to generate hydrogen when this is pretty much the least efficient way to store energy, especially when this is all scaled up and the resulting energy wastage would be massive. Which means the money wastage would be massive, and in the end this it what will drive the decisions.

 

There's a reason that hydrogen has never taken off commercially in spite of having being technically feasible for at least 50 years, and this is it -- economics and efficiency.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

I think we would have a serious reduction in refineries though a ban on single use plastic would be a good start as they are made from oil as well

If I am reading this right,

 

1) refineries produce more electricity than they use

2) we are going to have "a serious reduction" in refineries

 

Therefore:

 

3) we are going to have a "serious reduction" in the amount of electricity produced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

If I am reading this right,

 

1) refineries produce more electricity than they use

2) we are going to have "a serious reduction" in refineries

 

Therefore:

 

3) we are going to have a "serious reduction" in the amount of electricity produced.

No, I dont think  that is right. Grangemouth is a net electricity exporter but only just - There are only a handful of refineries in  the UK so hardly a serious reduction. I doubt if anyone would notice the change in lecky available.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

No, I dont think  that is right. Grangemouth is a net electricity exporter but only just - There are only a handful of refineries in  the UK so hardly a serious reduction. I doubt if anyone would notice the change in lecky available.

Like I said... I had/have no idea, and was merely using the language of peterboat. You serve to highlight the exaggeration/s :)

 

He used the word “huge” with respect to wind farms, but resists providing the numbers, and he has done the same here.

 

I’m surprised that 99 hasn’t joined in to ask for some numbers..... he likes a good link..... but only when it suits him ;) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

No, I dont think  that is right. Grangemouth is a net electricity exporter but only just - There are only a handful of refineries in  the UK so hardly a serious reduction. I doubt if anyone would notice the change in lecky available.

Yes we do not have many refineries in the UK at all!    Grangemouth in Scotland, Immingham on the east coast, Shell Haven on the Thames (though I think this might only be storage now...) Fawley in the Solent, Milford Haven/Pembroke in Wales and Stanlow on the Mersery.   A lot of them are pretty old too, Pembroke for example was built for Texaco in 1964.   If all the heat from these could be captured then they could certainly aid in adding to the Power grid, but only just!

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Like I said... I had/have no idea, and was merely using the language of peterboat. You serve to highlight the exaggeration/s :)

 

He used the word “huge” with respect to wind farms, but resists providing the numbers, and he has done the same here.

 

I’m surprised that 99 hasn’t joined in to ask for some numbers..... he likes a good link..... but only when it suits him ;) 

You live in a dream world. over 30% of electric produced is by registered wind turbines [their are unregistered one that supply private use only turn those off and the UK stops working! Scotland exports its green energy to us we are the forefront of this tech and you write it off as nothing! Every turbine that goes up means that fossil fuels goes down

14 Oct 2019 - Gas now contributes the vast majority of that shrinking total, as coal plants ... In the third quarter of 2019, some 39% of UK electricity generation was ... Another 40% came from renewables, including 20% from wind, 12% from ...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, bizzard said:

An optional extra for the above mode of drive or for any other form, electric drive, or indeed even for Hybrids or Lowbrids, an extra which will extend the duration of the vehicle mileage, in fact make it endless. You will be able, with this extra to go anywhere, hundreds, thousands of miles without having to stop to charge up batteries and all that nonsense, and will of course allieviate the driver of all the worry and angziety of conking out, dribbling to a standstill with flat batteries in the middle of nowhere in the dead of night in a hurricane and forgotten their mackintosh, umbrella and torch and still wearing carpet slippers. A terrible nuisance wouldn't it be. This optional extra although optional will become a BIG must have. I will not describe yet what this revolutionary optional extra is, for fear of that Yankie Tesla mob over the pond try to pinch my invention before I've perfected and patented it.  Just a little hint and clue for you all. It is regenerative, Cuckoo clocks.     Mr Bizzard, missmanaging, indirector, Clockbatdrill car Co.

Hello.  Mrs Pushit here, Mr Bizzards secretary at the Clockbatdrill car Co.  Mr Bizzard has just telephoned me from the patents office to relay this information to you all to relieve you and the whole wide world of the suspense caused by the delay. His new and revolutionary optional extra add on for EV, Hybrid, Lowbrid and the Clockbatdrill car. Pendulums. Pendulums dangling from the roof inside the car. ''Why pendulums'' yoo may ask. Because if they can dangle freely from mini constant velocity joints which will enable them to swing unhindered anywhere in a circular arc. Surrounded with lots of little dynamos which will generate charging currant for the batteries. The pendulum will continually swing around from the perpendicular  whilst the car is in motion, swing forwards when braking, backwards when accellerating, forwards going down hill, backwards going uphill, side to side when cornering, in fact the pendulum wil be continually in motion swinging about on all points of the compass generating electricity to charge the batteries while the car is underway, hence the totally unlimited milage range without stopping your cars will now be able to do, something that the likes of the Yankie Tesla's and others are unable to achieve, he! he! he!. For tall drivers lots of short pendulums can dangle from the roof, as the single longer one would whack the the back of the drivers head under braking and while going downhill and in the ear whilst cornering on a downhill gradient.

  That's all the information I have recieved from Mr Bizzard because he ran out of pennies in the public telephone box, but I daresay he'll continue with the description of his wonderful invention on his return to our factory.

  Thanks for looking at this.  Regards Mrs Pushit.

Edited by bizzard
  • Greenie 1
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Technology is advancing at an astounding rate.  I defy anyone to look at this graph and tell me that decarbonisation is not possible. In fact, I'd say that this graph tells me its inevitable. When solar and wind are cheaper than other ways of generating energy, capitalism's workings will force them to take over.

 

Image result for cost of solar power graph

Edited by Onionman
  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two reasons why their power consumption has plummeted. 1 is Boeing have stopped production of the 737 MAX.   2. Tesla have just read my thread on here about my optional extra invention, ''see posts above'', and have ceased production of their paltry outdated EV's on realisation that their offerings are now outdated and useless.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

In my mind, the graph included in your post does not clearly show it.

That's old data by now, here's something newer:

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2019/05/29/renewable-energy-costs-tumble/#6d1eabb2e8ce

 

"IRENA says these trends are likely to continue over the next decade, particularly for solar and wind power technologies. According to the organisation's database, over 75% of the onshore wind and 80% of the solar PV capacity due to be commissioned next year will produce power at lower prices than the cheapest new coal, oil or natural gas options. “Crucially, they are set to do so without financial assistance,” it noted."

 

The graphs and the report both show that the cost of wind and solar power is continuing to fall every year as technology advances; in contrast the cost of fossil-fuelled power is staying the same or rising slowly (should rise even faster if the environmental cost of CO2 emissions was factored in) and nuclear is rising more rapidly due to safety concerns, waste disposal costs, and a shrinking market size. These are trends that will only continue in future; never mind green incentives to switch to renewables, this gives people/countries/industries the greed incentive i.e. making/saving money -- which is *far* more powerful ?

 

As for costs and lifetime of batteries these are also falling and rising respectively every year, again as technology improves and economies of scale kick in. Tesla will announce car batteries this year with "million-mile lifetime", in other words at least 4000 full charge cycles while retaining at least 90% capacity, and is also planning to remove cobalt from the recipe which is one of the things limiting cost and production volume (expensive, limited mining capacity).

 

The problems of energy storage and distribution are big but will be solved once enough money is thrown at the problem and industry/governments *want* to solve it -- because it makes money, not just because it's green...

11 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Two reasons why their power consumption has plummeted. 1 is Boeing have stopped production of the 737 MAX.   2. Tesla have just read my thread on here about my optional extra invention, ''see posts above'', and have ceased production of their paltry outdated EV's on realisation that their offerings are now outdated and useless.

It's a pity that the Patent Office has a specific rule banning applications or inventions which are thinly disguised perpetual motion machines, but a big thumbs up for trying ?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

 

I’m surprised that 99 hasn’t joined in to ask for some numbers..... he likes a good link..... but only when it suits him ;) 

 

I provided a link showing, in real time, what wind and solar is being used in the UK (and other countries).

 

Presently, the baseload of renewables is growing but at this time you need instant access local power (typically gas fired 3 mins to pres-start to generatation feed in) to facilitate the growth in solar and wind base load. (Electrical load Peak Shaving or Strategic Online Reserve).

 

My CV has 28 commissioned UK STOR power station projects listed so far and 5 more on the books including an experimental one just about to go online. Is that a good enough number for you?

Edited by mark99
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, mark99 said:

 

I provided a link showing, in real time, what wind and solar is being used in the UK (and other countries).

 

Presently, the baseload of renewables is growing but at this time you need instant access local power (typically gas fired 3 mins to pres-start to generatation feed in) to facilitate the growth in solar and wind base load. (Electrical load Peak Shaving or Strategic Online Reserve).

 

My CV has 28 commissioned UK STOR power station projects listed so far and 5 more on the books including an experimental one just about to go online. Is that a good enough number for you?

Things are changing Mark today only 4% of electric was by coal, wind goes up and down all the time as its easy to turn off a turbine, one day maybe we will be all clean energy [I dont include biomass as clean] with luck it will be in my lifetime

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.