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Buying a grp liveaboard as an extreme newbie


dogsarelandseals

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I've been looking at 30ft river cruisers to use as a liveaboard for a year while I'm starting a PhD, but honestly I'm completely new to all this, so I wanted to check and make sure I'm not making some catastrophic mistakes with the kinds of boats I'm looking at (and am quite close to buying).

 

The favourite is a 30ft grp river cruiser from the mid 70's, which comes with central heating installed, oven, grill, fridge, shower and cassette toilet. Its been very well looked after but my concerns are that it still has its original engines, although they have been recently serviced, and that I'll only have access to 12v of power. I'm so new to this that I wasn't even sure what that meant until my partner explained how that would restrict what I could use on the boat in terms of charging laptops, games consoles etc (I KNOW how stupid this is, feel free to laugh!). I like it because its flashy and clean looking and I'll get a discount at the mooring if I buy it. To be honest though, I'd prefer something more modern looking  - my preference is white plastic over antique wood finishes. 

 

My other possibilities are a Broom Ocean 30, or a Viking 26 Narrowbeam (neither of which has central heating). I know I'm restricted from travelling on canals with the former two, but I'm not intending to do much beyond move up and down the river a bit. I'm not comfortable with my lack of knowledge to buy a steel hull, I've read too many horror stories and I'd be waking up in a cold sweat worrying a sneaky bit of rust had gotten past me and the boat was sinking.

 

Ideally I'd like to be able to have a freezer on board, as well as be able to power a tv and console (purely because I already have one, and it seems a shame to sell it and all the games I've bought). I'll be mooring with access to electric, so I don't know if that makes any difference. 

 

From what I understand, its better not to have an outboard motor (as I've seen the Viking narrowbeams have) in order to charge the battery, but that also an outboard is much cheaper to service. Is this the case?

 

Any hints, warnings or tips would be very appreciated. I need to do this quite quickly for personal reasons, which is why I'm jumping into this all rather quickly. I do have people that will help me with the learning process once I have the boat. My budget is about £15,000.

 

Thank you

 

 

 

 

Edited by dogsarelandseals
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Unless you have shorepower (basically an extension lead), forget having a freezer as well as all those other things you have listed. The electricity has to come from somewhere, and you haven't described a boat with a system to provide that power.

 

Typically people spend several thousand on the power systems alone - or rely on shorepower.

 

Moving on a boat, your big changes would be:

  • No space. Pack your clothes in a suitcase (medium-size). Now, those are all the clothes you have to use. No extras. 
  • Damp - it can be very difficult to not have damp causing mildew. Particularly under mattresses.
  • Washing. Get used to using a laundrette, budget in the additional cost.
  • Can you cope with hauling round a box full of poo? Mentally and physically? A cassette from an elsan, when full, isn't light. You really don't want to drop it. Doing this once a week will become part of your life. Oh, and that limited set of clothes will include some clothes for these dirty jobs.

 

There are other things to learn about (many), but that is a start. Please, before contemplating moving on a boat, learn something about handling a boat, tying one up properly. I spent too much time rescuing people and boats when I was a liveaboard. It was tiresome. 

 

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Firstly, as Alastair has noted, living on a boat will be a total culture change and involve minimalism in a lot of aspects of life. Even in the best of weather, some of it will seem like camping and roughing it, toilet emptying being just one. Be sure, then double sure about this. I imagine embarking on a PhD but dreading returning to a damp boat at night could have a detrimental effect on someone's ability to study.

 

A mooring with 240v electric hookup is a bit of a game-changer in your post. You mention 12v only but then say the mooring has electricity and residential. An off grid vessel for travel becomes a floating outbuilding if it's on a hookup, and lots of us keep a freezer in the garage.

 

What type of heating does it have? Is hot water created by running the engine, is it a separate diesel unit, gas heater, hot air or combination?

 

Things like a freezer can be run off an electric hookup, just like having a big extension lead to dry land, when moored up but when the boat's not on the mooring, the power for those appliances will need to come from the batteries. Some people have incredible battery banks, do a lot of miles (charging batteries) and have a lot of solar panels and even they have to be frugal with their energy use if they are constantly cruising or have no hookup on their mooring.

 

I remember a young guy living on a 20' yacht you couldn't stand up in but he had hookup to it and the marina had a launderette and showers. He was quite capable of holding down a decent IT job.

 

You will come across boats that have been used residentially in marinas where the engine hasn't been run for ages because all power is drawn from the bollard and not the battery bank. Do make sure that whatever you are looking at has a decent engine. Big GRP river boats can be near worthless if  old and tired and the engine needs replacing. You may not plan to use the engine much but starting with a good one and keeping it in good condition will protect your investment when it comes to resale value. Need not be anything wrong with well maintained, older engines. 

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Is the boat insulated? A decent layer of insulation of the entire superstructure and hull of the cabin will enable you to keep the boat warm and dry in winter and keep the heating costs down. If uninsulated or partially insulated you will have real problems with condensation, damp and mould.

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Another point to consider is make sure any inboard engine is diesel. Petrol is ok for outboard, but petrol inboard is a safety concern, as well as difficult to pass BSS.

 

If boat is 12v only then adding 230v system is not too difficult (if mains hookup available at the mooring), but factor the cost into the purchase price. 

 

You should br able to get a decent grp boat at that price point. Have a good look round and don't rush into purchasing the first one you like. Put links on here to any you find that you like, and you'll get lots of opinions on them, things to look for, and an idea of if the price is realistic or not. 

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I absolutely agree with your username OP!

 

You're on a mooring with access to electricity so you can basically run what you like when it comes to electrical loads so long as you steer clear of electric heating or cooking.

 

I live happily on a 32ft GRP, have done for 3 years while studying then working for the last 2. I don't fully understand why everyone universally thinks that you're some sort of societal dropout with only 2 cans of strong cider to your name when you say you live on a plastic boat. Still, helps to keep the secret of their value between us, eh?

 

P.S. is it the Dawncraft Rover on Ebay? Looks decent if so, they have integral insulation between 2 fibreglass roof skins so no worries there, but getting the windows to seal properly can be a right pain

 

 

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16 hours ago, BilgePump said:

What type of heating does it have? Is hot water created by running the engine, is it a separate diesel unit, gas heater, hot air or combination?

Thanks for your reply. One has blown hot air from a Webasto heater, and another uses An Eberspacher system, which I've read can be noisy and quite fumey.

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You will come across boats that have been used residentially in marinas where the engine hasn't been run for ages because all power is drawn from the bollard and not the battery bank. Do make sure that whatever you are looking at has a decent engine. Big GRP river boats can be near worthless if  old and tired and the engine needs replacing. You may not plan to use the engine much but starting with a good one and keeping it in good condition will protect your investment when it comes to resale value. Need not be anything wrong with well maintained, older engines. 

That's a relief - when spekaing to my partner about it he was quite worried about the age of the engine, I have been checking the service history of all the boats I'm interested in. 

 

Edited by dogsarelandseals
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15 hours ago, David Mack said:

Is the boat insulated? A decent layer of insulation of the entire superstructure and hull of the cabin will enable you to keep the boat warm and dry in winter and keep the heating costs down. If uninsulated or partially insulated you will have real problems with condensation, damp and mould.

Sorry for a silly question - but how would I find out if they are insulated or not..?

 

5 hours ago, Tom and Bex said:

Another point to consider is make sure any inboard engine is diesel. Petrol is ok for outboard, but petrol inboard is a safety concern, as well as difficult to pass BSS.

 

If boat is 12v only then adding 230v system is not too difficult (if mains hookup available at the mooring), but factor the cost into the purchase price. 

 

You should br able to get a decent grp boat at that price point. Have a good look round and don't rush into purchasing the first one you like. Put links on here to any you find that you like, and you'll get lots of opinions on them, things to look for, and an idea of if the price is realistic or not. 

Thanks for this - do you have any idea of price for adding a 230v system? I am trying hard not to rush into buying anything.

 

3 hours ago, harrybsmith said:

I absolutely agree with your username OP!

 

You're on a mooring with access to electricity so you can basically run what you like when it comes to electrical loads so long as you steer clear of electric heating or cooking.

 

I live happily on a 32ft GRP, have done for 3 years while studying then working for the last 2. I don't fully understand why everyone universally thinks that you're some sort of societal dropout with only 2 cans of strong cider to your name when you say you live on a plastic boat. Still, helps to keep the secret of their value between us, eh?

 

P.S. is it the Dawncraft Rover on Ebay? Looks decent if so, they have integral insulation between 2 fibreglass roof skins so no worries there, but getting the windows to seal properly can be a right pain

 

 

Thank you! That's really great to hear. I don't hear of many doing it but my marina wasn't surprised when I told them so that was reassuring to me. I wont tell anyone how great it is - keeps the prices down! Can I ask why I can't run electric heating, like a fan heater? I thought I'd seen those on boats before, but I might be mistaken.

No its not, I'll have a look at that one too though!

Edited by dogsarelandseals
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One of the boats I'm looking at has had it's engine serviced by the owner as he is an engineer - I was a a bit suspicious of this as that means there's no proof as to when it was done or what the standard was. Is that a reason to not buy it? It was serviced last year (by owner) and the boat is renovated to (what appears to be) a very high standard. The broker isn't very forthcoming about the work that has been done. He has no history to hand on the boat at all. When I've asked he's said 'what do you want to know' which seems a little shady to me - surely if a lot of work and money have been put into a boat you're selling, you'd tell that to your customers? Because its a selling point? Another boat I've viewed has full history, very devoted owners, and although it's not ideal I'm leaning more towards that as I feel it's a safer investment. This process is super stressful and I'm worried I'm going to end up with a lemon. 

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8 hours ago, dogsarelandseals said:

One of the boats I'm looking at has had it's engine serviced by the owner as he is an engineer - I was a a bit suspicious of this as that means there's no proof as to when it was done or what the standard was. Is that a reason to not buy it? It was serviced last year (by owner) and the boat is renovated to (what appears to be) a very high standard. The broker isn't very forthcoming about the work that has been done. He has no history to hand on the boat at all. When I've asked he's said 'what do you want to know' which seems a little shady to me - surely if a lot of work and money have been put into a boat you're selling, you'd tell that to your customers? Because its a selling point? Another boat I've viewed has full history, very devoted owners, and although it's not ideal I'm leaning more towards that as I feel it's a safer investment. This process is super stressful and I'm worried I'm going to end up with a lemon. 

The broker is only an agent advertising and handling the sale for the owner, it is unlikely he will have first hand knowledge of whats been done to the boat other than what the owner tells him, if its a large brokerage he may well have hundreds of boats.

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If look at the majority of Brokers sales details there will be a clause (to the effect of)

 

"We have not examined the boat, the information provided is that given to us by the owner, we are simply acting as an intermediary in all communications"

 

Under the law. the broker is not obliged to make you aware of any faults on the boat, but if you ask a specific question (ie, when was the engine last serviced) then they must reply honestly (if they know the answer).

 

 

Some brokers would prefer not to know details about the boat as the answers could jeopardise the sale, their T&Cs will say "we cannot comment on the boat and you are advised to employ an independent surveyor".

 

Examples :

 

1) PLEASE NOTE: This is sales information and not a survey report; providing content details only.  The specification in these pages is based on ABNB’s visit to the boat and on information given by the owner.  This is to help you decide whether to investigate the boat further, be it by surveyor or otherwise.  The information here is given in good faith but no description, statement, promise of work to be done, or suggestion for future use, constitutes an offer. If the craft leaves the UK, any necessary VAT paid status may not be available. 

 

2) Any information relating to the history or condition of the Boat supplied by the Company is only as supplied to the Company by the Seller and the Company cannot be held responsible and shall not be liable in any way if such information proves to be inaccurate. It is the responsibility of the Buyer to ensure that all particulars given in the course of the purchase of the Boat are accurate. Such particulars are intended only as a guide and do not constitute a term of any contract.

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9 hours ago, dogsarelandseals said:

Sorry for a silly question - but how would I find out if they are insulated or not..?

 

 

 

GRP cruisers are not usually well insulated (unless a previous owner has insulated it)

Generally there is carpet like material stuck to the inside of the hull,and similar in the cabin,or sometimes bare fibreglass.Some have a double skin cabin with balsa (Norman) or some other material in between.

If the inside of the cabin is smooth fibreglass,then it is likely to be double skin,and will have reasonable insulation properties,providing the material in the sandwich has not rotted away.

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, dogsarelandseals said:

Thanks for this - do you have any idea of price for adding a 230v system? I am trying hard not to rush into buying anything.

A basic system should cost no more than £200 if doing the work yourself, and that includes battery charger. If having boatyard do the work, then no idea but would take a guess at £500-1000 for a simple system (2-3 double sockets and charger).

 

Note that those prices do not include inverter for using 230v away from mains hookup. Having inverter will put the price up significantly as well as adding extra complexity. 

 

As to electric heating, could work if on permanent hookup, but most marina supplies are max 16a (some less). You need to be mindful of total current draw as even a basic 2kw fan heater will draw around 9a, electric kettles often draw 13a and so on. You're also left with no heating if the supply fails for any reason (and marina may not give same priority to restoring supply as domestic suppliers). For grp I would suggest going for diesel blown air heating as first choice. 

 

I would have no issues with a boat that had been serviced by the owner, but be guided by how clean and tidy the engine bay is, general tidiness of wiring, and how well everything works. 

 

Would suggest you put links up to boats you're interested in, and you'll get comments about them, ideas of other boats to look at etc. You may even find someone on here knows the actual boat. 

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11 hours ago, dogsarelandseals said:

One of the boats I'm looking at has had it's engine serviced by the owner as he is an engineer - I was a a bit suspicious of this as that means there's no proof as to when it was done or what the standard was. 

 

Lots of boat owners do their own engine servicing. For most engines this just involves changing engine and gearbox oil, together with fuel and oil filters (and air filter if fitted). Also checking the alternator belt tension and occasionally changing the belt. Conscientious owners will keep the receipts for these items, but many (including ne) don't bother.

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9 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Conscientious owners will keep the receipts for these items, but many (including ne) don't bother.

I do all my own work and don't bother with receipts either. General servicing is actually quite easy and saves a lot of money over paying marina prices!

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Thanks very much everyone, very reassuring and I’m now much happier about ‘favourite boat’. I have nicknamed it whale boat because it’s quite large, and I have the emotional maturity of a chicken nugget. I’d like to post a link but I’m a little bit paranoid that it might get bought by someone else :( 

 

I will be buying a planar heater which appears to be a good fit from reading reviews and threads about them. 
 

Another question, and maybe quite a prickly one... is a survey necessary on a 1970s grp boat at £15000 ish? I feel I’ve read conflicting things, but I’m a bit tempted because I want to get the price down, and I’m sure the survey will pick up items that I can use to negotiate with. 
 

last question for now.. what is the done thing regarding negotiating down from the asking price? I will be having it hauled at considerable expense (quoted £1400 max) and would like to get it as cheaply as possible, but I’m it sure how low is polite to offer. Should I offer 500 lower? Or a couple of grand lower? I’m a cash buyer. I don’t want to pay too much but I don’t want to seem like a time waster either. 

Edited by dogsarelandseals
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2 minutes ago, dogsarelandseals said:

Thanks very much everyone, very reassuring and I’m now much happier about ‘favourite boat’. I’d like to post a link but I’m a little bit paranoid that it might get bought by someone else :( 

 

I will be buying a planar heater which appears to be a good fit from reading reviews and threads about them. 
 

Another question, and maybe quite a prickly one... is a survey necessary on a 1970s grp boat at £15000 ish? I feel I’ve read conflicting things, but I’m a bit tempted because I want to get the price down, and I’m sure the survey will pick up items that I can use to negotiate with. 

A decent surveyor will always find enough wrong with the boat for you to haggle at least the price of the survey away.

 

They are however not worth the paper they are written on as there are that many get out clauses you have no come backs on the surveyor.

 

We know several people with the Planar heaters installed and they work very well. If it breaks just buy a new one for what little they cost. We used our little cruiser in some very cold weather over the years and the 2kw blown air Webasto kept it toasty warm, we were never cold onboard. The other advantage of blown air is that it is a dry source of heat and the movement of the air helps to keep condensation at bay and the boat nice and dry.

 

We always did our own servicing on our boat. It isn't rocket science.

 

One thing I don't think you have mentioned is the drive system? Is it a shaft or sterndrives? If the latter beware that parts are becoming a bit hard to find for some of the older units.

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5 minutes ago, dogsarelandseals said:

I will be buying a planar heater which appears to be a good fit from reading reviews and threads about them. 

Make sure it is the Marine version not the automotive version.

 

5 minutes ago, dogsarelandseals said:

Another question, and maybe quite a prickly one... is a survey necessary on a 1970s grp boat at £15000 ish? I feel I’ve read conflicting things, but I’m a bit tempted because I want to get the price down, and I’m sure the survey will pick up items that I can use to negotiate with. 

If you have sufficient knowledge to be able to tell if everything is OK, or, what is not OK then don't bother with a survey. If you do not have the knowledge then get a survey.

 

6 minutes ago, dogsarelandseals said:

last question for now.. what is the done thing regarding negotiating down from the asking price? I will be having it hauled at considerable expense (quoted £1400 max) and would like to get it as cheaply as possible, but I’m it sure how low is polite to offer. Should I offer 500 lower? Or a couple of grand lower? I’m a cash buyer. I don’t want to pay too much but I don’t want to seem like a time waster either. 

There was a time when it was possible to offer 30% 'off' and get the boat, but it is all very different now as many 100's of folks are looking at cheap boats as to getting 'onto the housing ladder' and something that allows them to live in the city for very low costs.

Good boats will sell within days if priced correctly, tatty boats if overpriced boats can take years to sell and slowly depreciate as they 'crumble and rot.

 

Without knowing the boat and the condition it is in I'd start at say 10% below asking price (any more and you may offend the seller and lose it) but be prepared to pay the asking price if you have decided it is the 'one for you'.

 

A survey will cost approaching £1000 by the time you have paid for lift outs and lift ins + surveyors cost, so not only do you want to get the price down to cover the necessary repair costs (£1400) but recover the surveyors costs as well - are you likely to get £2500 knocked off the price of a £15000 boat - it depends.

 

Good luck.

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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you have sufficient knowledge to be able to tell if everything is OK, or, what is not OK then don't bother with a survey. If you do not have the knowledge then get a survey

A survey will cost approaching £1000 by the time you have paid for lift outs and lift ins + surveyors cost, so not only do you want to get the price down to cover the necessary repair costs (£1400) but recover the surveyors costs as well - are you likely to get £2500 knocked off the price of a £15000 boat - it depends.

 

Good luck.

I don’t have the knowledge really bar making sure all the electrics work and it isn’t sinking. Such a large chunk of money to spend though. Thanks for the help.

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Just now, dogsarelandseals said:

I don’t have the knowledge really bar making sure all the electrics work and it isn’t sinking. Such a large chunk of money to spend though. Thanks for the help.

You have to weigh up if you could afford to lose £15k if the boat turns out to be a proper lemon?

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26 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

A decent surveyor will always find enough wrong with the boat for you to haggle at least the price of the survey away.

 

They are however not worth the paper they are written on as there are that many get out clauses you have no come backs on the surveyor.

 

We know several people with the Planar heaters installed and they work very well. If it breaks just buy a new one for what little they cost. We used our little cruiser in some very cold weather over the years and the 2kw blown air Webasto kept it toasty warm, we were never cold onboard. The other advantage of blown air is that it is a dry source of heat and the movement of the air helps to keep condensation at bay and the boat nice and dry.

 

We always did our own servicing on our boat. It isn't rocket science.

 

One thing I don't think you have mentioned is the drive system? Is it a shaft or sterndrives? If the latter beware that parts are becoming a bit hard to find for some of the older units.

Thanks for your help. I believe it’s a shaft system but I will check that!

7 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

You have to weigh up if you could afford to lose £15k if the boat turns out to be a proper lemon?

No, I absolutely couldn’t, but realistically with a grp boat is that likely? I know this is very naive probably but if it’s floating and everything turns on then at worst wouldn’t it be the engine that could need replacing? I suppose there could be some terrible osmosis but from what I’ve read the hulls back then we’re built much thicker so it’s less of a concern.

Edited by dogsarelandseals
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11 minutes ago, dogsarelandseals said:

No, I absolutely couldn’t, but realistically with a grp boat is that likely? I know this is very naive probably but if it’s floating then at worst wouldn’t it be the engine that could need replacing? I suppose there could be some terrible osmosis but from what I’ve read the hulls back then we’re built much thicker so it’s less of a concern.

Before 'pulling the trigger' there may be a few things to consider :

 

A Twin engine cruiser in going to have a beam greater than 6' 10" / 7' 00" (it is probably in excess of 9 feet and some locks are only 7' 2" wide) so you will be limited as to which waterways you can use it on.

It is quite likely that it will have a draft (how deep it sits in the water) deeper than the canal depth.

It is quite likely that the air-draft (how high it is out of the water) will not allow it to pass under bridges on the canals.

 

So can you tell us what make and model of boat it is, and where you intend to use it ?

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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