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Zips on cratch covers, pram hoods and such like seem to be the feature that fails first as the cover ages. Has anyone tried Dutch lacing as an alternative to zips? The way of doing up doors on old fashioned canvas tents. It seems to me that this would be a more robust way of fastening than a zip, at the expense of a bit more time in doing up. Egress in an emergency would be fast as you'd just need to undo the bottom, then pull on the canvas and it all undoes. I almost said unzips, but that is the wrong word!

Vaguely contemplating a cratch cover for the boat at some time and this idea appeals. What have I not thought of?

 

Jen

 

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Total faff. And not that water-tight when done (look at the size of those eyelets!). So, if it were mine, I wouldn't bother. And, if were going to have a cratch cover I wasn't going to bother to do up then one with a zip (working or otherwise) would be easier to source.

 

Depends what you're going to use it for... for storing a bike you don't ride/a few bags of coal and usually (dis)embarking another route it would be fine. For daily use, less so.

 

Presumably you wouldn't be thinking of having to unlace and relace from the outside (even more faffy unless you make the lace external, in which case it will be horribly soggy when you get back) when you leave the boat?

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10 minutes ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

Total faff. And not that water-tight when done (look at the size of those eyelets!)

Thanks for the comments. Not totally waterproof, but little is. The eyelets are hidden when done up, so only driving rain from the wrong direction would get at them.

 

10 minutes ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

Depends what you're going to use it for... for storing a bike you don't ride/a few bags of coal and usually (dis)embarking another route it would be fine. For daily use, less so.

The stern hatch is the main route in/out on my boat. The idea of the cratch cover is a covered area for sitting out, eating etc, so not used all the time.

10 minutes ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

Presumably you wouldn't be thinking of having to unlace and relace from the outside (even more faffy unless you make the lace external

On my boat, most often laced from the inside. Doing it from the outside is perfectly possible, as it is with old fashioned canvas tents. Possible to put the laces on the outside with an extra flap to protect them, but I'd be going for internal lacing.

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies

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I thought you were going to discuss lacing up your wellies.  .............................

 

 

.........................    coat  :boat:

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5 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The idea of the cratch cover is a covered area for sitting out, eating etc, so not used all the time.

So, coal store/toolshed/spare parts hoard/... :-)

 

I do know one boat where they really do use it for eating but it has a permanently set up (albeit removable) table and they don't CC or liveaboard so have fewer storage requirements. And it is lovely. I have a feeling not that common though.

  • Haha 1

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34 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Thanks for the comments. Not totally waterproof, but little is. The eyelets are hidden when done up, so only driving rain from the wrong direction would get at them.

 

The stern hatch is the main route in/out on my boat. The idea of the cratch cover is a covered area for sitting out, eating etc, so not used all the time.

On my boat, most often laced from the inside. Doing it from the outside is perfectly possible, as it is with old fashioned canvas tents. Possible to put the laces on the outside with an extra flap to protect them, but I'd be going for internal lacing.

When I helped with a marque I was surprised the number of people who couldn't work out how to do it

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3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

When I helped with a marque I was surprised the number of people who couldn't work out how to do it

They do seem to be an effective intelligence test!

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4 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

They do seem to be an effective intelligence test!

True & one not everyone passes.  They're probably better at French Dressing though.🙃

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7 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Zips on cratch covers, pram hoods and such like seem to be the feature that fails first as the cover ages. Has anyone tried Dutch lacing as an alternative to zips? The way of doing up doors on old fashioned canvas tents. It seems to me that this would be a more robust way of fastening than a zip, at the expense of a bit more time in doing up. Egress in an emergency would be fast as you'd just need to undo the bottom, then pull on the canvas and it all undoes. I almost said unzips, but that is the wrong word!

Vaguely contemplating a cratch cover for the boat at some time and this idea appeals. What have I not thought of?

 

Jen

 

That's neat, why have I never seen that before.

5 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

When I helped with a marque I was surprised the number of people who couldn't work out how to do it

How could someone not work that out?

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5 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

 

How could someone not work that out?

Have you ever watch some people trying to tie their boats up ?

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15 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Have you ever watch some people trying to tie their boats up ?

Or wondered why there are velcro shoe fasteners...

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Isn't the problem with Dutch lacing that people need to do up the zip on cratch cover from both inside and from outside on differing occasions? 

 

Dutch lacing appears to me to be designed for doing up from one side only. 

 

 

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I don't have any covers myself but if the zips are failing it's either because the quality isn't up to the job or possibly because they don't get an annual smear of something like silicone grease to keep them maintained for long term exposure.

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Isn't the problem with Dutch lacing that people need to do up the zip on cratch cover from both inside and from outside on differing occasions? 

 

Dutch lacing appears to me to be designed for doing up from one side only. 

 

 

It can be done from both sides. Not as easy, but can be done. Canvas type materials are flexible. Tent doors need to be done up from both sides on differing occasions too.

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6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

It can be done from both sides. Not as easy, but can be done. Canvas type materials are flexible. Tent doors need to be done up from both sides on differing occasions too.

 

Oh right, that's good. I really like the idea. The zip on mine is coming detached from the cover material at the top. The sewing thread is failing. This seems a lot more robust, durable and simple than zips.

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47 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Oh right, that's good. I really like the idea. The zip on mine is coming detached from the cover material at the top. The sewing thread is failing. This seems a lot more robust, durable and simple than zips.

Someone has to be brave enough to go first, since no one on here seems to have done it this way. Also needs a canopy maker open to the idea. Wonder what @Kinver Canopies thinks of the concept?

Jen

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Oh right, that's good. I really like the idea. The zip on mine is coming detached from the cover material at the top. The sewing thread is failing. This seems a lot more robust, durable and simple than zips.

The loops of rope could feed through an eyelet with a stop knot on either side, a reduction in weather resistance but the lacing accessible inside and out

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We'll try anything...twice,  First time may go wrong. :)

 

It looks simple enough,  wouldn't be my first choice but each to their own.  In our experience the main reason zips fail are 

A.The original manufacture of the cover used a coloured thread, these rot as they have been bleached so they colour can be added. ( to fix only use natural or black).

B. The zip is a coil zip which can't stand sideways tension that well.( to fix use Vislon Number 10 continues toothed zip)

C.Its a small tooth size ( to fix use Vislon Number 10 continues toothed zip)

D. It has been caught at gunwale height whilst cruising/in lock or by other boats collision. ( to fix tuck side of cratch onto top of gunwale when cruising, Build 4ft thick wall around your boat every time you moor!!)

  • Greenie 1

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On 13/02/2020 at 09:49, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Zips on cratch covers, pram hoods and such like seem to be the feature that fails first as the cover ages. Has anyone tried Dutch lacing as an alternative to zips? The way of doing up doors on old fashioned canvas tents. It seems to me that this would be a more robust way of fastening than a zip, at the expense of a bit more time in doing up. Egress in an emergency would be fast as you'd just need to undo the bottom, then pull on the canvas and it all undoes. I almost said unzips, but that is the wrong word!

Vaguely contemplating a cratch cover for the boat at some time and this idea appeals. What have I not thought of?

Blimey, there's a blast from the past. Being an outdoorsy gurl both by leisure and profession I used to see (and use) these quite a lot, thankfully you hardly see them any more, they were such a footer, and have probbly gone the way of the lorrymans wrench (or hitch depending what part of the country you hail from). 

 

They may be a footer but they are easy to do to the point where you can do them by feel so as easy to tie in the dark as in the day, and you're right they can be done from both sides, and if you can get the tension right can be undone quickly by running your hand up between the two sheets. You used to get them on covers for lorries and trailers where the loops were slightly elasticated and secured at the bottom by hooking the bottom lace/loop over an anchor point of some sort, the elastic allowed you to pull the whole thing tighter making it less prone to trouble from the wind; but of course the elastic didn't last for ever. 

 

If I was fitting one I wouldn't be using a knot at the bottom, I would have the last lace elastic so I could easily pull it over on and off a hook but my experience is that the wind will always find a way to get in about this kind of tie method so it needs to be really well made with a good over flap, the correct length laces, and the last lace really tightly secured or you just give the wind something to play with which will eventually cause damage. I wouldn't say this method is any more robust than a really good zip but possibly for different reasons; I'm not trying to sound like a rain cloud but unlike with a zip every one of those laces has the potential to provide the wind with a little pocket to get in and buffet around, so can work well if made well but can can also get trashed pretty quickly in bad weather if not. 

 

I think they look really nice cos I like things like that but on a more practical note the rope laces may have the potential to out live a zip but the stitching of the seams would need to be extra secure, a sturdy over flap thingy (I'm not sure what you actually call them) that maybe also had heavy duty snap fasteners or velcro and either a good anchor point for the bottom lace/loop or don't make it a loop so that you can tie it in a better more secure way, would be my suggestions. 

 

Sorry that's a bit rambly :huh:

 

  • Greenie 1

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Zips can also get tricky in the longer term, if the canvas and/or the A frame support stretches or distorts a bit.

 

Dutch lacing is far more forgiving when things are no longer a perfect fit.

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32 minutes ago, Kinver Canopies said:

We'll try anything...twice,  First time may go wrong. :)

 

It looks simple enough,  wouldn't be my first choice but each to their own.  In our experience the main reason zips fail are 

A.The original manufacture of the cover used a coloured thread, these rot as they have been bleached so they colour can be added. ( to fix only use natural or black).

B. The zip is a coil zip which can't stand sideways tension that well.( to fix use Vislon Number 10 continues toothed zip)

C.Its a small tooth size ( to fix use Vislon Number 10 continues toothed zip)

D. It has been caught at gunwale height whilst cruising/in lock or by other boats collision. ( to fix tuck side of cratch onto top of gunwale when cruising, Build 4ft thick wall around your boat every time you moor!!)

Thanks for the reply. I am also guessing that they would be a lot of work to make, compared with stitching in a zip. Inserting all the eyelets, ensuring the loops are the correct length and stitching them in. Jigs might help, once you've got the optimum length, for a particular spacing and canvas thickness.

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5 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Thanks for the reply. I am also guessing that they would be a lot of work to make, compared with stitching in a zip. Inserting all the eyelets, ensuring the loops are the correct length and stitching them in. Jigs might help, once you've got the optimum length, for a particular spacing and canvas thickness.

Once we've work out the size it would be about the same manufacturer time .

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