Moving a boat to Europe

[peterboat]

23 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

We all know you are well travelled, that wasn’t the point you were making. You supplied one example of an expensive place, now you supply 3 more: Venice and Rome are expensive, no sh1t Sherlock! I have no idea about Corfu, but it wouldn’t surprise me. 

If you holiday in an expensive place, it will be expensive...

If you have expensive tastes, even cheaper places will be expensive...

Nowhere can the weather be guaranteed, for example my one African holiday it peed with rain for weeks....

We holiday in France, and not expensively but that is just our choice....

 

Generalisations are soooo tricky.

 

They can be but don't worry I am sure the EU will miss our holiday makers as we abandon them for more welcoming countries ?

[Iain_S]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You could always do a Timothy Spall

 

Probably unwise in a wide beam built for inland waters.

A friend of mine set out from the Clyde in a similar vessel with the intention of navigating the Crinan and Caledonian canals. Made it to Rothesay, with assistance from RNLI, before deciding discretion was the better part of valour!

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Iain_S said:

Probably unwise in a wide beam built for inland waters.

Agreed, - but if you are retiring and going to take (say) 10 years circumnavigating you'd get a suitable boat.

 

Practical Boat Owner Magazine has been running 'serial' story about the owner of a 30' Benetau Antares boat circumnavigating Ireland.

The Atlantic can be a wild place.

 

The Antares is very similar to the boat we used to cruise up the West Coast of Wales, England in Scotland as far as Ft William.

[Murflynn]

My brother moved to Brittany 2 years ago and last week he had a run-in with French Customs.  He has a classic yacht valued at about £50K that was registered in Guernsey in 1955 by the original owner (presumably for some tax purpose) and still is.  He enquired from the RYA legal office if he needed to make any special arrangements for moving his boat from Dartmouth to Lorient.  They said not.  He has had the boat in France for 18 months.

 

The Customs routinely check the boats in the marina, throwing up an anomaly in my brother's case.  They called him in for an interview and advised him that because he had not declared he was importing a boat from the Channel Isles (which of course they call the Isles of Normandy and resent the UK connection) he must pay VAT and a fine.   After a sensible negotiation they accepted that the boat was part of his domestic property that he imported from the UK when he moved his place of residence and reduced the penalty to a modest fine for not making a declaration when he moved.

 

The lesson learned is that UK organisations (especially the RYA who set out to be the authority on such matters) do not have the detailed knowledge to advise on such matters, and that, if you are unlucky, the foreign authorities will catch up with you and will take action unless everything is documented and in order.

[Stilllearning]

4 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

My brother moved to Brittany 2 years ago and last week he had a run-in with French Customs.  He has a classic yacht valued at about £50K that was registered in Guernsey in 1955 by the original owner (presumably for some tax purpose) and still is.  He enquired from the RYA legal office if he needed to make any special arrangements for moving his boat from Dartmouth to Lorient.  They said not.  He has had the boat in France for 18 months.

 

The Customs routinely check the boats in the marina, throwing up an anomaly in my brother's case.  They called him in for an interview and advised him that because he had not declared he was importing a boat from the Channel Isles (which of course they call the Isles of Normandy and resent the UK connection) he must pay VAT and a fine.   After a sensible negotiation they accepted that the boat was part of his domestic property that he imported from the UK when he moved his place of residence and reduced the penalty to a modest fine for not making a declaration when he moved.

 

The lesson learned is that UK organisations (especially the RYA who set out to be the authority on such matters) do not have the detailed knowledge to advise on such matters, and that, if you are unlucky, the foreign authorities will catch up with you and will take action unless everything is documented and in order.

Do try to curb your apparent dislike of the French. The Channel Islands, as they are known in Great Britain, were part of the Duchy of Normandy before William the Bastard conquered England in 1066.. Thus France is accurate to still call them the Norman Isles. We have never heard of any resentment of the UK connection, though the tax haven status is pretty indefensible imho.

As you correctly say, relying on a UK based organisation to advise on French attitudes to import duties and VAT was a mistake. We have found that it is always best to chat to the French authorities. As an aside, can you imagine the UK Vatman agreeing to drop a bill for VAT?

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

He has had the boat in France for 18 months.

His 18 months allowance was 'up' - If only he had read the rules and taken his boat out of EU waters for a day and come back he would have had another 18 months.

 

How long can the yacht stay in the EU? 
Normally, you can use the vessel in the EU for one and a half years. In technical terms, the period for discharge for privately used means of sea and inland waterway transport is 18 months. This is laid down in Article 217(e) of the Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2015/2446 (UCC-DA). 

Can you have another period of Temporary Importation? How long must you wait? 
Yes, you are not limited to a single period of temporary import. You can sail the yacht out of the EU and when you came back again a new period of temporary admission can begin. The customs rules do not provide for a 'minimum period' during which the goods must remain outside of the customs territory of the Union. 

 

As the Channel Islands are not part of the EU for VAT purposes for VAT he obviously could not provide a satisfactory EU VAT paid certificate, so the rules would suggest that it was subject to VAT if it was not removed prior to the expiry of the 18 month allowance.

 

A couple of years ago I was looking to buy a CI registered boat and 'bring it back' to the UK, when adding the (unpaid) VAT to the purchase price it made it uncompetitive and the owner would not drop the price, so I didn't proceed.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Athy]

19 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Do try to curb your apparent dislike of the French.

 

 

William the Bastard

Hmmm....

[Stilllearning]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

Hmmm....

It’s what the French call him, as I am sure you know.

[Murflynn]

2 hours ago, Stilllearning said:

Do try to curb your apparent dislike of the French.

???    wtf   ???   

 

I actually quite like the French.  I worked with them for 4 years and spent most of my foreign holidays in France.

 

stick ...........  wrong end ...................  get ...............  ??

[Stilllearning]

14 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

???    wtf   ???   

 

I actually quite like the French.  I worked with them for 4 years and spent most of my foreign holidays in France.

 

stick ...........  wrong end ...................  get ...............  ??

Then try to avoid making snide comments about them?

[mrsmelly]

16 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

???    wtf   ???   

 

I actually quite like the French.  I worked with them for 4 years and spent most of my foreign holidays in France.

 

stick ...........  wrong end ...................  get ...............  ??

Remember that particular poster is a quitter of these islands and lives in europe,  Frogland in particular and doesnt take kindly to negative comments relating to it lol. 

[Murflynn]

1 hour ago, Stilllearning said:

Then try to avoid making snide comments about them?

??????????????     ehh   ??????????????????????????

 

please identify what you believe to be a snide comment about the French.     

 

 

 

..............   oh, I forgot - you are still learning  ......................   but that doesn't excuse making silly inferences where none need exist.

 

 

[roland elsdon]

My Australian family bought a wide boat in France. They had to get 180 day visa if over 90 days. No real issues with that apparently as it simply has to be applied for.

The boat was (obviously) bought in europe taxes paid.

Having emigrated myself  you do have to watch gst / vat on goods, and check exemptions.

i suspect as we join the non eu queue it will be the same. Its unregulated movement and residency ( amongst a load of other things thats been thrown away).

[Stilllearning]

4 hours ago, Murflynn said:

the Channel Isles (which of course they call the Isles of Normandy and resent the UK connection) 

Snide : “derogatory or mocking in an indirect way”

 

[Athy]

3 hours ago, Stilllearning said:

It’s what the French call him, as I am sure you know.

It was humour, as I'm sure you know.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Athy

[Murflynn]

10 hours ago, Stilllearning said:

Snide : “derogatory or mocking in an indirect way”

 

you are so up yourself  !!

 

there is not a single mocking or derogatory statement in my post, clear evidence of which is you inability to identify any such statement even when requested to do so.

 

I cannot be held responsible for your subjective and irrational interpretation of an entirely factual and unemotional post.

 

...................  end of.   

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, Murflynn said:

you are so up yourself  !!

 

there is not a single mocking or derogatory statement in my post, clear evidence of which is you inability to identify any such statement even when requested to do so.

 

I cannot be held responsible for your subjective and irrational interpretation of an entirely factual and unemotional post.

 

...................  end of.   

He can't help himself, a sore loser that's not lost owt as he quit these shores and to quote " isn't coming back anytime soon" 

[Tam & Di]

On 24/01/2020 at 20:00, blackrose said:

I had a vague idea of doing something similar after retirement but probably on the back of a flatbed. But I was wondering if it's actually going to be possible after the brexit transition period has ended in 11 months time? I guess there are two issues: legally moving oneself and legally moving the boat to the EU. I can see both being very difficult.

It has been suggested a couple of times here that you look in at the DBA site www.barges.org where you will get a lot more useful information from those of us who've done what you are contemplating, such as dave&pen. Even better would be to join the DBA - a very moderate fee. There are several American/Australasian contributors who explain what they have done as non-EU visitors, both short term and long term, giving clues to how UK nationals will have to act once we become third world inhabitants. DBA is also very useful for practical matters of life afloat in its widest sense.

 

DBA members are as diverse as here, but at least If you ask such a question you won't have it turn into a jibe-fest by crass bigots as on this thread.

 

Tam

 

 

[Tam & Di]

Whatever is said here, there is no 'one' EU in practice, and Spain has always been known as extremely strict in its treatment of foreign craft. France is right at the other end of the scale, and many barge owners have 'got away with' a lot of things that should strictly be disallowed, such as the amount of time spent there. Several American and Australian owners have re-registered craft in their own country, and although I've always thought that could be potentially dangerous I've not heard of anyone actually suffering by it yet. If the craft was originally in an EU country they can at least prove that VAT was paid in the EU and there is no further liability. That is something that will fairly definitely change with any new-built vessel.

 

Schengen rules are that one can spend 90 days in any one 180 day period, with the period commencing when you first enter the country. That means it is not possible to run two 90 day periods together as 180 days. Although I am unclear myself as yet, there are apparently individual visas - say French - and Schengen visas, and they can be bounced off each pther to provide a longer stay. Many DBA members do regularly move around and slide from one country to another, and all the Customs Posts which used to exist at country boundaries have long since disappeared. I think the comment from non-EU DBA members is that it is important to arrive and leave EU from the same country or that can create difficulties.

 

Tam

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Tam & Di said:

Schengen rules are that one can spend 90 days in any one 180 day period, with the period commencing when you first enter the country. That means it is not possible to run two 90 day periods together as 180 days. Although I am unclear myself as yet, there are apparently individual visas - say French - and Schengen visas, and they can be bounced off each pther to provide a longer stay. Many DBA members do regularly move around and slide from one country to another, and all the Customs Posts which used to exist at country boundaries have long since disappeared. I think the comment from non-EU DBA members is that it is important to arrive and leave EU from the same country or that can create difficulties.

 

Tam

 

This does seem at odds with the EU's own website on "Rules for non EU private Boats"

 

How long can the yacht stay in the EU? 
Normally, you can use the vessel in the EU for one and a half years. In technical terms, the period for discharge for privately used means of sea and inland waterway transport is 18 months. This is laid down in Article 217(e) of the Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2015/2446 (UCC-DA).

 
Can the 18 months be extended if the yacht is not used? You may want to go home for Christmas! 
There is a possibility of extension of that period, but only in exceptional circumstances, as it is established in Article 251(3) of the Union Customs Code (UCC).  

Can you have another period of Temporary Importation? How long must you wait? 
Yes, you are not limited to a single period of temporary import. You can sail the yacht out of the EU and when you came back again a new period of temporary admission can begin. The customs rules do not provide for a 'minimum period' during which the goods must remain outside of the customs territory of the Union.

 

(Does this mean that the 'people' can only stay for 90 days but the boat can stay for 18 months ?)

 

It goes onto say :

 

A boat is temporarily admitted into the EU and not into one of the constituent Member States. Thus it can move from one Member State to another with no further customs formalities during the 18month period allowed. 

 

 

 

Here is the EU Webpage (under Taxation & Customs)

 

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/rules_for_private_boats-faq_en.pdf

[Tam & Di]

As I noted, Spain has a reputation for being very strict with 'foreign' vessels, even those of other EU countries. Spain of course has no inland waterways, and I think that any port will have a strong Douane/Customs presence and inspections are more likely there.

 

Although you are right that non-EU visitors have 90 days in 180 and their vessels may remain for 18 months, the reality for DBA members with inland vessels has been that although the personal period of stay (for those outside of the EU) is applied, that applicable to the craft is not. For UK members even the personal limits are only applied loosely, if at all. This appears true of Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany as well as France.

 

The general feeling is that Brexit has stirred up things presently ignored, and this laissée faire attitude will quite likely disappear. Police/Customs inspections are becoming noticeably more prevalent, particularly in Belgium and Germany.

 

Tam

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

As I noted,

Thank you.

 

Guess its going to be a 'wait and see' which rules are applied, and which get the 'blind eye' treatment.

[David Mack]

It seems that if you move to Europe by the end of the year you can stay indefinitely. Not sure about the boat though.

 

"Under the withdrawal agreement British nationals can settle in another EU member state right up to 31 December and claim lifetime rights as EU citizens."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/29/the-britons-getting-out-before-brexit-drawbridge-goes-up

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, David Mack said:

It seems that if you move to Europe by the end of the year you can stay indefinitely. Not sure about the boat though.

 

"Under the withdrawal agreement British nationals can settle in another EU member state right up to 31 December and claim lifetime rights as EU citizens."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/29/the-britons-getting-out-before-brexit-drawbridge-goes-up

Register it as a French vessel and it should be able to stay permanently.

 

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/the-french-registration-of-your-pleasure-boat-49652

[Dav and Pen]

Not quite as simple as the article makes out. The boat has to be measured and comply with French standards before getting a registration number. I sold my barge to a French national and even though it had a community certificate and current gas certificate he still had to go through the whole procedure to change it from the SSR to the French registry.
People I know with boats in France have had to provide details of French bank accounts and  proof that they had been resident for 5 years which mainly meant being in the same mooring or having a mooring contract with the vnf which proved they had entitlement to the carte de sejour.

Spain may have an easier route as does Portugal.