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Moving a boat to Europe


blackrose

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10 minutes ago, john6767 said:

I would have thought that how it will work for people is very well defined.  France being part of Shengan must have its immigration rules controlled by the EU and all that will happen for the UK is that you will be subject to those rule, in the same way that someone, say from the US would be today,  in general terms probably 90 days as a visitor and you get a visa if you want to stay longer, but you should be able to easily look that up.
 

You may well be able to simple come back to the UK every couple of months and then return again, I know two people who used that technique when on secondment to one of our offices on the US.

 

Or it may not be so simple "..it seems highly likely that your stays will be restricted to 3 months, no return within 3 months" 

 

I can only imagine the added complexity of bringing a privately owned boat into the EU.

 

Judging by the news item I watched last night I don't think the situation is well defined yet. Once we find ourselves queuing up at passport control in Europe with all the non-EU passport holders I think the reality of all this will finally sink in.

Edited by blackrose
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1 minute ago, blackrose said:

 

Or it may not be so simple "..it seems highly likely that your stays will be restricted to 3 months, no return within 3 months" 

 

 

Judging by the news item I watched last night I don't think the situation is well defined yet. Once we find ourselves queuing up at passport control in Europe with all the non-EU passport holders I think the reality of all this will finally sink in.

If that is what the Schengan rules are then you would probably want to get a visa.  Seems a strange rule that they don’t allow a person to return to the area for three months after a visit.

 

What is not well defined?

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6 minutes ago, john6767 said:

Yep the boat would be a different matter and I have no idea how that works, but again it must already be very well defined, they is no new situation here, the only thing that changes is which category UK citizens/boats fall into.

 

Are you sure the situation for a British registered boat going into another EU country doesn't change once we leave the EU? I'm very dubious about that. I think all that needs to be shown currently are some form of ownership and vat status, plus the relevant documents for the owner, CEVNI, etc. I can't see it being that easy once we've left the EU.

3 minutes ago, john6767 said:

 

What is not well defined?

 

The new rules for Brits wanting to live in the EU after brexit and bringing a boat from the UK to the EU after brexit.

 

I think we're all guessing at the moment.

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2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Are you sure the situation for a British registered boat going into another EU country doesn't change once we leave the EU? I'm very dubious about that. I think all that needs to be shown currently are some form of ownership and vat status, plus the relevant documents for the owner, CEVNI, etc. I can't see it being that easy once we've left the EU.

If the French rules are as complex as the Spanish rules then it won't be 'as easy as that'.

 

https://www.rya.org.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/cruising/Web Documents/Boating Abroad/Keeping_your_boat_in_Spain.pdf

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3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Are you sure the situation for a British registered boat going into another EU country doesn't change once we leave the EU? I'm very dubious about that. I think all that needs to be shown currently are some form of ownership and vat status, plus the relevant documents for the owner, CEVNI, etc. I can't see it being that easy once we've left the EU.

 

The new rules for Brits wanting to live in the EU after brexit and bringing a boat from the UK to the EU after brexit.

 

I think we're all guessing at the moment.

Surely the rules for people and boats will be exactly the same as they are for people/boats from non EU now.  How does if work now if you are from say Australia or the US.

 

 

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Just now, john6767 said:

Surely the rules for people and boats will be exactly the same as they are for people/boats from non EU now.  How does if work now if you are from say Australia or the US.

 

 

 

But unlike Australia or the US we're currently an EU country that's leaving the EU so there situation for us WILL change.

 

You've already admitted that you don't know the current rules for taking boats to other EU countries so I don't understand how you can then claim that nothing will change?

 

As much as I'd like to believe that it's all well defined and that nothing will change, I'm afraid your opinion is just guesswork like everyone else's.

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9 minutes ago, john6767 said:

If that is what the Schengan rules are then you would probably want to get a visa.  Seems a strange rule that they don’t allow a person to return to the area for three months after a visit.

 

What is not well defined?

Just have a look and the rule about staying in Schengan is not no return within 90 days, it is

 

90 days in a 180-day period of time”

 

Thats a bit different, but does impact you if you want to stay for the full 90 days, but there is nothing to stop you visiting a days a week for example with many people do now on business, and that does not look at though it would be impacted.

 

So to stay there on a extended holiday then it looks as though you would need to get a visa.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

What are the present arrangements for a boat from any other of the nearly two hundred countries not part of the eu? Surely there isn't a different rule for each country is there? 

 

I don't know, but surely it's not as easy for people bringing boats from those nearly 200 non-EU countries into the EU as it is for people bringing boats from EU countries into other EU countries?

2 minutes ago, john6767 said:

 

So to stay there on a extended holiday then it looks as though you would need to get a visa.

 

 

So there's a big change there and it seems more than likely that the visa rules will prevent non-EU citizens living in the EU which is surely the point of the visa.

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4 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I don't know, but surely it's not as easy for people bringing boats from those nearly 200 non-EU countries into the EU as it is for people bringing boats from EU countries into other EU countries?

Agreed, the eu is a club all its own with many reciprocal benefits for its members. We will be outside it so I would guess there are already rules set up for non members taking boats there? 

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11 hours ago, Bee said:

I think the answer is that nobody, least of all the UK gov. have the first idea what the hell will happen . I wrote to my (tory) MP to find out if she knew anything and did not even get a reply.  The Dutch Barge Association are the first place to go to followed closely by the RYA and then maybe there are ex pats. associations for people with caravans or property abroad. Its all a stupid mess. I was in Prague yesterday (!) talking to someone who had lived through some dark days in that country and he thought we were mad.

Why would he think we were mad ? Then again if I were a resident of Prague which effectively was part of a Soviet Satellite State I suppose membership of the EU would in comparison be Utopia .

17 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

The number of conditional grammatical usages that are in every official pronouncement show just how little is known about any future arrangements.

I think you have summarised accurately the current position

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21 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I don't know, but surely it's not as easy for people bringing boats from those nearly 200 non-EU countries into the EU as it is for people bringing boats from EU countries into other EU countries?

The point being made is that :

 

1) UK boats are presently classed as EU boats and have 'free movement' in the EU, so when we are no longer in the EU the rules will change for UK boats.

2) Non EU boats (of which we will become) can still visit / register / reside in the EU but have certain conditions to meet (ie the Spanish rules I linked to)

 

The existing rules for non-EU boats are well defined (ie the Spanish rules) and I'd suggest that they will now apply to UK registered boats.

 

 

Frequently Asked Questions on: Rules for private boats  
What are the basics? 
Non-EU vessels which are intended for re-export may be temporarily be brought into and used for private purposes in the EU, or more strictly in the 'customs territory of the Union, (which includes our territorial waters) without customs duties or Value Added Tax (VAT) needing to be paid.  
The boats concerned have to be placed under the 'temporary admission procedure' (TA) with Customs and the period of use in the EU is limited in time. When the time is up the boat has to leave, which in official jargon means that 'the procedure must be discharged'. The re-export of the goods from the customs territory of the Union is the usual way of ending or 'discharging' a temporary admission procedure. If the boat does not leave before the end of that time then customs duty and VAT become due. 
A boat is temporarily admitted into the EU and not into one of the constituent Member States. Thus it can move from one Member State to another with no further customs formalities during the 18month period allowed. 


How can a yacht be placed under TA? 
Just crossing the frontier of the customs territory of the Union is in generally sufficient. But, you may be required to use a route specified by customs and they may require you to make an oral or written customs declaration. It is possible they may require the provision of some kind of security or guarantee to cover the payment of the customs duties and VAT that become due if the boat does not leave the EU. 


How long can the yacht stay in the EU? 
Normally, you can use the vessel in the EU for one and a half years. In technical terms, the period for discharge for privately used means of sea and inland waterway transport is 18 months. This is laid down in Article 217(e) of the Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2015/2446 (UCC-DA).

 
Can the 18 months be extended if the yacht is not used? You may want to go home for Christmas! 
There is a possibility of extension of that period, but only in exceptional circumstances, as it is established in Article 251(3) of the Union Customs Code (UCC).  


Can you have another period of Temporary Importation? How long must you wait? 
Yes, you are not limited to a single period of temporary import. You can sail the yacht out of the EU and when you came back again a new period of temporary admission can begin. The customs rules
do not provide for a 'minimum period' during which the goods must remain outside of the customs territory of the Union. 

 

Where can you find the legal texts? 
The legal provisions on temporary admission are found in: 
 Articles 250 to 253 of the Union Customs Code (UCC). 
(Regulation (EU) No 952/2013 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 9 October 2013 laying down the Union Customs Code); NB Be careful if you want to print this as the whole of the Code is 160 pages long - print using the menu 'File' and select the pages you want). 
 and in particular Articles 207 to 217 of the Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2015/2446 (UCC-DA).  (Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2015/2446 of 28 July 2015); NB Be careful if you want to print from this as the implementing provisions is 613 pages long! - print using the menu 'File' and select the pages you want). 
Important 
This page is only a simple explanation of the law and is not comprehensive. The information it contains cannot be cited as definitive in relation to individual cases. Disclaimer. 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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11 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I don't know, but surely it's not as easy for people bringing boats from those nearly 200 non-EU countries into the EU as it is for people bringing boats from EU countries into other EU countries?

 

So there's a big change there and it seems more than likely that the visa rules will prevent non-EU citizens living in the EU which is surely the point of the visa.

Beyond the faf in visiting the embassy for interview I can’t see why it would be an issue as long as you have the funds to cover your stay and health insurance etc, just all the usual stuff. If you were from the US you would be doing all that now.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You could always do a Timothy Spall

The Princess Matilda was a Cat B sea going barge and the 'Back at Sea' episode is about how he traveled up the west coast of the British Isles and where he vowed to never do it again. Much as I love the Caley I don't think is a substitute for the inland waterways of Europe, not to mention that as you can do it from one end to the other in two days and then can't go anywhere except back the way you came it probbly won't fill someones retirement (hopefully) . 

 

https://www.steelboats.co.uk/fcn_steel_seagoing_barge.html

 

Oh look the thread has taken a faceplant, what a surprise. 

 

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36 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

The Princess Matilda was a Cat B sea going barge

Funnily enough, we passed the Princess M, whilst she was moored up at the pontoons at Wells one year. We felt sure she looked familiar, but wasn't sure why until the following week when we got home and turned the TV on. 

 

Mrs Rusty had apparently been stood behind Mrs S in the local fruit and veg shop so it transpired. 

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We have just finished barging on the continent and sold the barge last year. Nobody is sure at the moment how the eu will treat Uk citizens after the end of this year but it is possible we will be deemed a third country in the worst case. Lots of American Aussies and New Zealanders as well as S. Africans have boats mainly in France and the Netherlands and have to get visas and there are arrangements for 180 day ones in place but these have to arranged in your home country.

Friends who live aboard in France and have done for many years are now getting carte de sejour to give them residency rights but this is complicated as each dept  seems to have different parameters but you need some proof that you have been there for 5 years. Actually the rules at present state that you should declare yourself after 6 months in the country but this never seems to be enforced. Most of the uk boaters in France haven’t done so as they still come back to use the NHS.

With regard to boats at present it must be registered, insured, and if over 20m have a es-trin certificate. Also best to have no red diesel in the tanks on arrival. It’s possible to get boats on the Dutch registry and this may be worth doing. Proof of VAT payment is necessary even if it was Zero. Before the eu and schengan there were border checks and it was necessary to take your boat out of the country after 6 months to avoid taxes etc but this meant between france to belgium or Holland and then back again. Don’t think this will happen again but the waterway police in all the countries have been much more active in recent years so who knows.

Its a great thing to do and we miss it greatly but having a 100 year old barge and getting older ourselves was proving difficult especially in France where there is a lack of tradesmen and even dry docks to help look after the ship. 

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2 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Or it may not be so simple "..it seems highly likely that your stays will be restricted to 3 months, no return within 3 months" 

 

I can only imagine the added complexity of bringing a privately owned boat into the EU.

 

Judging by the news item I watched last night I don't think the situation is well defined yet. Once we find ourselves queuing up at passport control in Europe with all the non-EU passport holders I think the reality of all this will finally sink in.

Highly unlikely, I dont go to EU countries anymore, holidays are expensive and very poor quality, so we opted to travel to non EU countries where we are all treated equal plus the weather is fantastic

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16 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

I do love your inaccurate generalisations.

 

 

Hardly, we went to Crete, hotel not great, expensive place, weather not to good, year after Turkey fantastic holiday weather great, hotel superb not expensive. Same time of year and the Crete holiday cost twice as much so for me why bother

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2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Hardly, we went to Crete, hotel not great, expensive place, weather not to good, year after Turkey fantastic holiday weather great, hotel superb not expensive. Same time of year and the Crete holiday cost twice as much so for me why bother

As Crete is your only example so far, I rest my case.

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Just now, Stilllearning said:

As Crete is your only example so far, I rest my case.

Loads of others but who wants an essay on it? Corfu, Rome, Venice expensive places. Remember I was in the forces so have been to many different countries Hong Kong, Australia 5 times New Zealand 6 times USA numerous times, lived in Germany, Holland and others, lost count of the countries where I have been on exercise to so I am well travelled

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10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Loads of others but who wants an essay on it? Corfu, Rome, Venice expensive places. Remember I was in the forces so have been to many different countries Hong Kong, Australia 5 times New Zealand 6 times USA numerous times, lived in Germany, Holland and others, lost count of the countries where I have been on exercise to so I am well travelled

As am I well travelled, that's why I am stopping here as in the best of them all overall ?

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12 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

As am I well travelled, that's why I am stopping here as in the best of them all overall ?

We are borrowing a friends Narrowboat in March and July this year, Jayne has never been on a skinny boat so it will be a learning curve for her ☹️?

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31 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Loads of others but who wants an essay on it? Corfu, Rome, Venice expensive places. Remember I was in the forces so have been to many different countries Hong Kong, Australia 5 times New Zealand 6 times USA numerous times, lived in Germany, Holland and others, lost count of the countries where I have been on exercise to so I am well travelled

We all know you are well travelled, that wasn’t the point you were making. You supplied one example of an expensive place, now you supply 3 more: Venice and Rome are expensive, no sh1t Sherlock! I have no idea about Corfu, but it wouldn’t surprise me. 

If you holiday in an expensive place, it will be expensive...

If you have expensive tastes, even cheaper places will be expensive...

Nowhere can the weather be guaranteed, for example my one African holiday it peed with rain for weeks....

We holiday in France, and not expensively but that is just our choice....

 

Generalisations are soooo tricky.

 

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