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Moving a boat to Europe


blackrose

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About 15 years ago I helped a friend take a sailing boat across the channel from Brighton marina to Le Tresport near Dieppe. He's moved further south and is still living on the boat in France. The day after we arrived a couple of police/port authority types casually strolled up and checked our paperwork, passports, boat papers, etc. I can't remember if he had to show a vat receipt for the boat but the whole thing didn't seem particularly onerous.

 

I had a vague idea of doing something similar after retirement but probably on the back of a flatbed. But I was wondering if it's actually going to be possible after the brexit transition period has ended in 11 months time? I guess there are two issues: legally moving oneself and legally moving the boat to the EU. I can see both being very difficult.

Edited by NB Lola
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Not sure that those worries are so relevant as the 3 month rule which will make the few thousand to get the boat over rather an expensive holiday. After several years over there with Snail (see the blog and/or buy my book A Cigar in Belgium) and coming back only because of Brexit uncertainties, we are looking at returning as Belgian residents this time to get around the Brexit problems. Of course, we will have to pay in to their health system completely but we will be able to travel freely again between other countries' waterways with Snail again. 

Edited by wandering snail
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48 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I had a vague idea of doing something similar after retirement but probably on the back of a flatbed. But I was wondering if it's actually going to be possible after the brexit transition period has ended in 11 months time? I guess there are two issues: legally moving oneself and legally moving the boat to the EU. I can see both being very difficult.

Are you planning to retain UK Registration of the boat, (if it is not currently registered you will need to get it UK registered before leaving UK waters) or register it in France ?

 

I think that at the moment no one has any idea about what will be needed in the future.

The RYA have very close contact with both the UK Government and Governments in Europe so it could be well worthwhile joining and getting the benefit of their advice and help.

Basic information is available on their website but 'more' is vailable to members.

 

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/boating-abroad/Pages/paperwork.aspx

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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I think the answer is that nobody, least of all the UK gov. have the first idea what the hell will happen . I wrote to my (tory) MP to find out if she knew anything and did not even get a reply.  The Dutch Barge Association are the first place to go to followed closely by the RYA and then maybe there are ex pats. associations for people with caravans or property abroad. Its all a stupid mess. I was in Prague yesterday (!) talking to someone who had lived through some dark days in that country and he thought we were mad.

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6 minutes ago, Bee said:

I think the answer is that nobody, least of all the UK gov. have the first idea what the hell will happen . I wrote to my (tory) MP to find out if she knew anything and did not even get a reply.  The Dutch Barge Association are the first place to go to followed closely by the RYA and then maybe there are ex pats. associations for people with caravans or property abroad. Its all a stupid mess. I was in Prague yesterday (!) talking to someone who had lived through some dark days in that country and he thought we were mad.

What percentage of working class UK own a boat? Figures show that less than 0.1 percent live aboard but how many hobby boaters are there? 

I don't think laws are passed for a tiny minority of us boaters. The bigger picture is I presume that it's not been considered so small are the numbers. We will all still be able to holiday abroad as we have for many years and long before the eu came into being. 

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8 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Figures show that less than 0.1 percent live aboard but how many hobby boaters are there? 

What figures? I'm genuinely interested, so if you could post a link or tell me where to look that would be great. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

What figures? I'm genuinely interested, so if you could post a link or tell me where to look that would be great. 

 

You gov figures say 30k claim to live aboard in the UK. That's less than 0.1 percent of the population. As I say I don't know how many hobby boaters there are amongst us but I do hope worrying about them being Able to take a boat to Europe is way down the list of priorities. 

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13 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

You gov figures say 30k claim to live aboard in the UK. That's less than 0.1 percent of the population. As I say I don't know how many hobby boaters there are amongst us but I do hope worrying about them being Able to take a boat to Europe is way down the list of priorities. 

Interesting. I've wondered before cos I suspect there are quite a few people up here who live in little plastic boats that if they lived anywhere else in the country would probbly be classed as homeless. It's not unusual for people who can't cope with society for what ever reason to end up in the highlands, and boats and bothies are plentiful. But there also seems to be growing communities of people living on yachts, working class people like us so on regular boats not big fancy millionaires toys. 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

What figures? I'm genuinely interested, so if you could post a link or tell me where to look that would be great. 

 

There are about 90,000+ 'leisure' boats on the UK inland waterways and 300,000+ 'leisure' boats based around the coast.

 

There seems to be few reported liveaboards in Coastal Marinas and when I looked most marinas actually forbid liveaboards.

The 'liveaboard' lifestyle seems to be more 'inland', notably on BW / C&RT waters and particularly around cites as a method of getting 'cheap' living.

 

The 2010 AINA survey showed*

British Waterways estimated that approximately 5,400 boats on its waterways are used for residential purposes.
The Environment Agency suggested there were 109 static houseboats on Agency waterways. They considered likely that there were around a further 200 boats or other vessels being used for residential purposes across Agency waterways.
The Broads Authority estimated from observation that less than 50 boats are used by the occupants as their sole or main place of residence. There are also 36 static houseboats within the Broads Authority’s administrative area, 16 of which are used as commercial self-catering holiday accommodation.


The other AINA members have very limited recorded data concerning boats used for residential purposes.

 

* The Association of Inland Navigation Authorities (AINA) is the industry body in Great Britain for those authorities with statutory or other legal responsibility for the management and operation of navigable inland waterways for navigation and wider use for public benefit.
AINA’s key strategic objectives are to develop, share and promote good practice for waterway management and operation as well as represent the collective views of navigation authorities to Government, regulators and other policy makers and opinion formers.
There are 21 AINA members drawn from the public, private and third sectors. They include British Waterways, the Environment Agency and the Broads Authority, in addition to national park authorities, local government authorities, private canal companies, internal drainage boards and a variety of public and charitable trusts.
Most AINA members are defined as navigation authorities by their own Acts of Parliament (some of them over 250 years old) which regulate the operation of their waterways. Others, such as local government authorities, have inherited the status of navigation authority through various statutes.
Between them, AINA members have responsibility for over 5,500 km of navigable, non-tidal inland waterways which include canals, river navigations and lakes.

 

 

People living on their boat as their sole or main place of residence are identified by the Government as an example of a household group. “Strategic Housing Market Assessments – Practice Guidance” by the Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG) published in March 2007 to support PPS 3, refers to barges used for residential purposes as a different type of accommodation and minority and hard to reach household group, under chapter 6 on “Housing Requirements of Specific Household Groups”.
Living afloat contributes towards increased choice in housing types and lifestyle and social inclusion. No comprehensive survey of this household group has been undertaken so it is not possible to establish the actual percentage of the total housing accommodation in England and Wales that this household group represents.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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38 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There seems to be few reported liveaboards in Coastal Marinas and when I looked most marinas actually forbid liveaboards.

I suppose that's why the highlands is easier for people who don't want to be constantly under someones eye. 

 

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5 hours ago, blackrose said:

About 15 years ago I helped a friend take a sailing boat across the channel from Brighton marina to Le Tresport near Dieppe. He's moved further south and is still living on the boat in France. The day after we arrived a couple of police/port authority types casually strolled up and checked our paperwork, passports, boat papers, etc. I can't remember if he had to show a vat receipt for the boat but the whole thing didn't seem particularly onerous.

 

I had a vague idea of doing something similar after retirement but probably on the back of a flatbed. But I was wondering if it's actually going to be possible after the brexit transition period has ended in 11 months time? I guess there are two issues: legally moving oneself and legally moving the boat to the EU. I can see both being very difficult.

As others say check with rya and dba current position. Nothing agreed yet and may never be but it seems highly likely that your stays will be restricted to 3 months, no return within 3 months, or you will need to get an expensive visa (available in France but not many other places)

As for the boat that would be allowed to stay for 6 months then either leave the EU for 24 hours (not so easy if its not sea going) or pay vat and import duty.

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10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you planning to retain UK Registration of the boat, (if it is not currently registered you will need to get it UK registered before leaving UK waters) or register it in France ?

 

I don't have a plan yet. As I said it's just a vague idea at the moment so I'd do whatever is required.

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9 hours ago, Bee said:

 Its all a stupid mess. I was in Prague yesterday (!) talking to someone who had lived through some dark days in that country and he thought we were mad.

 

Yes that's a given in my opinion too. Why we want to cut ourselves off and what the benefits of all this are I still don't understand. Nobody who supports it seems to be able to explain it either. Anyway there's another long-running thread about that so let's leave that discussion there. 

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6 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

As others say check with rya and dba current position. Nothing agreed yet and may never be but it seems highly likely that your stays will be restricted to 3 months, no return within 3 months, or you will need to get an expensive visa (available in France but not many other places)

As for the boat that would be allowed to stay for 6 months then either leave the EU for 24 hours (not so easy if its not sea going) or pay vat and import duty.

 

Ok thanks for the info everyone. Looks like the brexiteers have scuppered my retirement plans. If in about 10 years time you happen to see a big black widebeam coming the other way and have to move over, or see it moored somewhere and you have to change your course slightly to get around it, don't complain. It wasn't meant to be here!  ?

 

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2 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Ok thanks for the info everyone. Looks like the brexiteers have scuppered my retirement plans. If in about 10 years time you happen to see a big black widebeam coming the other way and have to move over, or see it moored somewhere and you have to change your course slightly to get around it, don't complain. It wasn't meant to be here!  ?

 

You could always do a Timothy Spall

 

 

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20 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Ok thanks for the info everyone. Looks like the brexiteers have scuppered my retirement plans.

Why should this be? I'm sure you're familiar with Gerard Morgan Grenville's 'Barging....' series of books, in which he bought an old barge and took it through much of Western Europe. I think he lived on board. I'm not sure of the dates - it may have been after we joined the Common Market, but was probably before we were part of the E.U. If he could do it then, why could you not do it now (or soon)?

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37 minutes ago, Athy said:

Why should this be? I'm sure you're familiar with Gerard Morgan Grenville's 'Barging....' series of books, in which he bought an old barge and took it through much of Western Europe. I think he lived on board. I'm not sure of the dates - it may have been after we joined the Common Market, but was probably before we were part of the E.U. If he could do it then, why could you not do it now (or soon)?

There will be time limits on visa free residence, limits on leaving a boat in Europe without paying taxes, and healthcare reciprocity is almost certain to end.

The complete uncertainty about the future isn’t helping either. There are a lot of Facebook groups talking about what will happen, but, as QI used to say, Nobody Knows. 

We only believe information given out by the French government, and for British citizens resident in France, the only definite statement from Paris is that we lose the right to vote as of next weekend. Nothing else is certain.

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52 minutes ago, Athy said:

Why should this be? I'm sure you're familiar with Gerard Morgan Grenville's 'Barging....' series of books, in which he bought an old barge and took it through much of Western Europe. I think he lived on board. I'm not sure of the dates - it may have been after we joined the Common Market, but was probably before we were part of the E.U. If he could do it then, why could you not do it now (or soon)?

 

I'm just going by what was said in some other posts, example below. Did you read those comments?

 

"...it seems highly likely that your stays will be restricted to 3 months, no return within 3 months"

Edited by blackrose
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10 hours ago, Bee said:

I think the answer is that nobody, least of all the UK gov. have the first idea what the hell will happen . I wrote to my (tory) MP to find out if she knew anything and did not even get a reply.  The Dutch Barge Association are the first place to go to followed closely by the RYA and then maybe there are ex pats. associations for people with caravans or property abroad. Its all a stupid mess. I was in Prague yesterday (!) talking to someone who had lived through some dark days in that country and he thought we were mad.

I would have thought that how it will work for people is very well defined.  France being part of Shengan must have its immigration rules controlled by the EU and all that will happen for the UK is that you will be subject to those rule, in the same way that someone, say from the US would be today,  in general terms probably 90 days as a visitor and you get a visa if you want to stay longer, but you should be able to easily look that up.
 

You may well be able to simple come back to the UK every couple of months and then return again, I know two people who used that technique when on secondment to one of our offices on the US.

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7 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

There will be time limits on visa free residence, limits on leaving a boat in Europe without paying taxes, and healthcare reciprocity is almost certain to end.

The complete uncertainty about the future isn’t helping either. There are a lot of Facebook groups talking about what will happen, but, as QI used to say, Nobody Knows. 

We only believe information given out by the French government, and for British citizens resident in France, the only definite statement from Paris is that we lose the right to vote as of next weekend. Nothing else is certain.

 

Yes I saw a news item last night about Brits living in Spain whose residential status should be ok and also a guy who was having to choose Czech or Polish citizenship in order to remain an EU citizen after brexit. The reporter was saying that anyone moving to the EU within the next 11 months should be ok if they want to stay, but after that all bets are off and it won't be so easy.

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6 minutes ago, john6767 said:

You may well be able to simple come back to the UK every couple of months and then return again, I know two people who used that technique when on secondment to one of our offices on the US.

I am GUESSING that, that's OK for people, but unless the boat is French registered then that would have to leave and return also.

 

The situation for keeping a boat in Spain (for a 'visitor' ie Non-EU) is quite complex.

 

https://www.rya.org.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/cruising/Web Documents/Boating Abroad/Keeping_your_boat_in_Spain.pdf

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

I am GUESSING that, that's OK for people, but unless the boat is French registered then that would have to leave and return also.

Yep the boat would be a different matter and I have no idea how that works, but again it must already be very well defined, they is no new situation here, the only thing that changes is which category UK citizens/boats fall into.

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