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Are 230v 3 pin sockets allowed in narrowboat bathrooms ?


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I have seen some photos of a boat for sale that shows what appears to be 230 v mains sockets in the bathroom situated near a shower mixer tap and also next to the vanity basin.

This seems dangerous to me, is it allowed ?

The boat has a bsc from 2019 but I am wondering if "upgrades" have been doen for sale.

When I was a training young sparks back in the dark ages sockets were not allowed in bathrooms and I assume it is the same on a boat ?

 

https://www.davidmawbyboats.co.uk/motor-boats-hallmark-sole-mitsubishi

Thanks.

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38 minutes ago, Paddlin Panda said:

When I was a training young sparks back in the dark ages sockets were not allowed in bathrooms and I assume it is the same on a boat ?

The rules applicable to any boat built under the RCD scheme (ie since 1998)

 

INTERNATIONAL STANDARD ISO 13297
Second edition 2000-12-01


Small craft Electrical systems - Alternating current installations 

 

13 Receptacles/sockets


13.1 Receptacles/sockets and matching plugs used on a.c. systems shall not be interchangeable with those used
in the d.c. system on the craft.
13.2 Receptacles/sockets installed in locations subject to rain, spray or splashing shall be able to be enclosed in
IP 55 enclosures, in accordance with IEC 60529, as a minimum, when not in use. Receptacles mated with the
appropriate plug shall also remain sealed, in accordance with IEC 60529.

13.3 Receptacles/sockets installed in areas subject to flooding or momentary submersion shall be in IP 56
enclosures, in accordance with IEC 60529, as a minimum, also meeting these requirements when in use with
electrical plugs.
13.4 Receptacles/sockets shall be of the earthing type with a terminal provided for the protective conductor.
13.5 Receptacles/sockets provided for the galley area shall be located so that appliance cords may be plugged in
without crossing above a galley stove or sink or across a traffic area.
13.6 Receptacles/sockets shall have a voltage rating in accordance with the voltage supplied by the power
sources.

 

Any subsequent owner could have fitted it and I very much doubt that any BSS examiner would have the knowledge to question it, and even if he did, it is not a BSS requirement.

 

One possible scenario would be if, in the event of an accident, the insurance may decline to pay-out as it was not in compliance with the RCD.

 

As it stands, the law states any 'safety' changes (Gas, electrics, stability) to a boat that falls under the RCD requires a PCA (Post Construction Assessment) to confirm that it is still compliant, or, maybe an electricians certificate that his work is RCD compliant might be sufficient.

 

As is so frequently pointed out, you are unlikely to be 'caught', but on such matters as 'safety' I'd rather not be subject to the risk of death in the 1st place.

I would disconnect the socket at both ends, 'cap off' the wiring and remove the socket.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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29 minutes ago, Paddlin Panda said:

sockets were not allowed in bathrooms

Depends how you define "not allowed".

  • Against building regulations, but these don't apply on a boat, otherwise boaters would need to be, or engage a proper accredited sparky for most mains wiring.
  • Not accepted best practice. As in, this is a really dumb idea.
  • Not allowed in the standards that make up the RCD. As @Alan de Enfield quotes above, which seems to suggest that a waterproof socket is OK, without mentioning bathrooms explicitly. Applies to boats built to the RCD.
  • Not allowed in the BSS. The BSS has hardly anything on AC electrics.

Different versions of "not allowed" can have different consequences if you are caught, or something goes wrong, from slap on the wrist, through disallowed insurance, to jail time, depending.

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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would have thought that the possibility of 'splashing' the mains socket whilst using the shower head to fill the washing machine is quite high.

 

 

55747f26c36cd481c1f52704c32837ae.jpg

Your boat Alan?  Surprised that there is not a laminated copy of the relevant regs hanging on the wall.  So where does the porta potty fit in now, or is the trin tub "dual purpose"? 

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Is this actually a 240V ac socket? It is quite common to see the small round pin 5A mains type plugs and sockets used for 12V dc on boats. Best used with the 12V wired across the earth and neutral pins so there's no problem if a 12V boat appliance is accidentally plugged into a socket on land which is wired at 240V ac.

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There's even more sockets on the other side of the room, well within splashing range of the sink.

Looking at the advert photos, there is a huge number of 240v sockets in the boat.  I for one (16th Ed sparky) would not be at all happy with what has been done.

 

Bod

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Is this actually a 240V ac socket? It is quite common to see the small round pin 5A mains type plugs and sockets used for 12V dc on boats. Best used with the 12V wired across the earth and neutral pins so there's no problem if a 12V boat appliance is accidentally plugged into a socket on land which is wired at 240V ac.

Another huge NO-NO!

 

Bod

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7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Is this actually a 240V ac socket? It is quite common to see the small round pin 5A mains type plugs and sockets used for 12V dc on boats. Best used with the 12V wired across the earth and neutral pins so there's no problem if a 12V boat appliance is accidentally plugged into a socket on land which is wired at 240V ac.

 

It looks to me very much like a twin-switched 230v socket (installed upside down)

 

The end of the plug is upwards and 'open' so any splashes could run down inside the plug.

 

7ee6ecc566fbd2077b9952510c35cbfb.jpg

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It looks to me very much like a twin-switched 23v socket (installed upside down)

 

The end of the plug is upwards and 'open' so any splashes could run down inside the plug.

 

7ee6ecc566fbd2077b9952510c35cbfb.jpg

That looks interesting all round...the clips for the pipe & cable look like the nail type...

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Well, I have had a look onboard and it is a nice clean boat. Seems the owner was a gadget lover and tech hobbyist.

Generally the electric wiring looks ok with the exception of the 13 amp sockets in the head. The leaky pipe section has been replaced.

Apart from taking out, replacing as appropriate the power sockets in the bathroom it is ticking a lot of boxes for me.

Thanks a lot for your help. I will find, copy and save the various guidelines ready for haggling time.

Cheers, I will report back!!!!

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would have thought that the possibility of 'splashing' the mains socket whilst using the shower head to fill the washing machine is quite high.

 

 

55747f26c36cd481c1f52704c32837ae.jpg

 

And if the washing machine were set up, say,on a draining board at the kitchen sink, would that risk be any less?

I have ever fully understood why in the domestic situation there is no restriction (I believe?) on how close 230v sockets can be to sinks, whereas it is a complete no no in athrooms.

Yes obviously if you stand in the shower with it running, and try to use a hair dryer that would be "unadvisable", but if you are just stood there, (on the floor, not in the shower tray!), doing the washing, and manage to get a bit of water on the socket, why are you at greater risk than if you did that in another part of the boat?

Edited by alan_fincher
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14 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

And if the washing machine were set up, say,on a draining board at the kitchen sink, would that risk be any less?

I have ever fully understood why in the domestic situation there is no restriction (I believe?) on how close 230v sockets can be to sinks, whereas it is a complete no no in athrooms.

Yes obviously if you stand in the shower with it running, and try to use a hair dryer that would be "unadvisable", but if you are just stood there, (on the floor, not in the shower tray!), doing the washing, and manage to get a bit of water on the socket, why are you at greater risk than if you did that in another part of the boat?

Whilst I admire our UK standards for electricity and other services, I do consider that a person with enough survival sense and average intelligence should be safe enough in a bathroom with sockets. The regs state that there should be no mains, sockets or lights/switches in reach of a person using a fixed bath or shower, impossible in a boat.

 

I have travelled extensively and can safely ( ! ) say that standards anywhere else in the world are lower than the UK.

Yet I don't think that this is because the UK population have lost all common sense or are stupid, just that we have a good set of standards and guidelines.

 

In some countries the wiring appears to be to no standard at all, the people survive, even stupid tourists manage to avoid electrocution.

I have seen installations in showers that make me cringe, RCD switches if fitted are invariably in the shower. Overhead shower lights are mains unearthed fittings. Bare wires abound, disconnected earth wires are common.

 

Do we worry too much?

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CE marking is not just about complance with the applicable standards . Under the "Essential requirements" assessment all potential risks need to be identified even covering possible abuse of equipment. The 240v installation photographed could not be accepted even though it contravenes no applicable standards. When CE marking started there were very few harmonised standards so the risk assessment was a very important starting point which might then look for "best practice " as guidelines.

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15 minutes ago, PaulD said:

CE marking is not just about complance with the applicable standards . Under the "Essential requirements" assessment all potential risks need to be identified even covering possible abuse of equipment. The 240v installation photographed could not be accepted even though it contravenes no applicable standards. When CE marking started there were very few harmonised standards so the risk assessment was a very important starting point which might then look for "best practice " as guidelines.

 

And yet... another poster in a different thread was poo-pooing the idea RCD was anything sophisticated. All one needed to do was get the RCD manual from another boat and copy it, changing the name and other details to match your own boat. Jeez!!!

  • Horror 1
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1 minute ago, Stephen Jeavons said:

You can of course have a shaver /toothbrush socket adjacent to a basin. These have transformer isolation and are considered safe providing they are installed correctly and are fed with the correct fuse.

I have one.

(As a minimum), they may buzz a bit if you try to run a washing machine off them, though!

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19 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And yet... another poster in a different thread was poo-pooing the idea RCD was anything sophisticated. All one needed to do was get the RCD manual from another boat and copy it, changing the name and other details to match your own boat. Jeez!!!

CE marking started by being a sensible process done by practical hands on engineers. Now with 1000s of standards it is a new profession and usually done as you suggest - take a similar one and change the name. You can always find the person doing it in the corner of the engineering department where the tomato plants are growing in the window. Forgot the last time he was on site.

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Just now, PaulD said:

CE marking started by being a sensible process done by practical hands on engineers. Now with 1000s of standards it is a new profession and usually done as you suggest - take a similar one and change the name. You can always find the person doing it in the corner of the engineering department where the tomato plants are growing in the window. Forgot the last time he was on site.

Do you actually know what an RCD manual is and what it contains ?

(Clue - it is not a CE specification, or even a CE marking)

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Do you actually know what an RCD manual is and what it contains ?

(Clue - it is not a CE specification, or even a CE marking)

Yes. My experience was mostly Machinery Directive not RCD. The concept is the same but different directive.

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2 minutes ago, PaulD said:

Yes. My experience was mostly Machinery Directive not RCD. The concept is the same but different directive.

The RCD manual and ID Plate is basically the builders 'signature' that the boat complies with the requirements and includes such things as :

How to start the engine, how to fill the tanks, location of fire extinguishers, the individual standards on stability, gas installations, etc. etc.

There is actually (are you surprised) a ISO standard listing the required contents, format etc :

 

"BS EN ISO 10240:2004 Small Craft - Owner's manual"

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19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The RCD manual and ID Plate is basically the builders 'signature' that the boat complies with the requirements and includes such things as :

How to start the engine, how to fill the tanks, location of fire extinguishers, the individual standards on stability, gas installations, etc. etc.

There is actually (are you surprised) a ISO standard listing the required contents, format etc :

 

"BS EN ISO 10240:2004 Small Craft - Owner's manual"

But it is the creation of the technical file that leads to the declaration of conformity or incorporation. 

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