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CRT against freight to Leeds


Orwellian

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Unfortunately this sort of contradiction is becoming every day fare at C&RT

 

"We want to increase canal traffic ...............…. No you can't use your barges"

 

Surely if he agrees to the same conditions as his Grandfather there shouldn't be a problem :

 

..................his indentures, which stipulate: "He shall not commit fornication nor contract matrimony within the said term. He shall not play at cards or dice tables... he shall not haunt taverns or playhouses"

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Unfortunately this sort of contradiction is becoming every day fare at C&RT

 

"We want to increase canal traffic ...............…. No you can't use your barges"

 

Surely if he agrees to the same conditions as his Grandfather there shouldn't be a problem :

 

..................his indentures, which stipulate: "He shall not commit fornication nor contract matrimony within the said term. He shall not play at cards or dice tables... he shall not haunt taverns or playhouses"

His Granddad must have broken at least one of those conditions, or his dad wouldn't have been born. ?

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Sounds from the quoted newspaper report that the matter is a bit more complicated than initially suggested. The objection by CaRT is - at least ostensibly - not on whether the water route is OK but the use of the wharf by additional vehicles. It also says that the matter is being reviewed so perhaps a little of of pressure from that well-known environmentalist DjT, might help!

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It implies that Leeds council are ok with additional road traffic at the wharf so why should CRT be bothered? Is it more likely the condition of the navigation there would prove unsuitable for the barges but they won't admit this?

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11 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

Do you have any evidence to support that assertion?

Indeed I do. But for the time being I'm going to claim commercial sensitivity so you'll just have to take my word for it!

 

However, the principle behind making temporary use of this wharf is that there are several good reasons why this flow needs to start asap – well ahead of the projected completion date for Stourton Wharf.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Orwellian said:

I thought someone might ask!  Seriously I will try and answer the various points made, respecting commercial confidentiality of course.

As is well known the intention always has been (and is) to move sea dredged aggregate from Hull to the new wharf at Stourton (Port Leeds) when it opens - later this year, or more likely early 2021 - both to a potential readymix plant and also 'out of the gate'.  However rather unexpectedly an opportunity has recently arisen to move the material into Leeds sooner than expected so the Trust was asked by CBOA if the former Leeds Terminal (at Old Mill Lane Knostrop) could be used on a temporary basis pending opening of Stourton terminal.  The wharf at Knostrop has 'protected' status conferred by Leeds City Council at least until Stourton opens and so in principle it can be used.  A part of the wharf (the open area) has to be (and is) kept clear for the purpose.  However there are two challenges, the first of which was not mentioned in the report.  The site is currently fully let which means there is nowhere to store the sand when it's discharged.  However through the generosity of one of the occupiers and CRT there may be a way forward - but it may take a bit of time to sort.  The second challenge, which is mentioned, is that because the site is already very busy the Trust has had to commission a study by an independent traffic consultant to show that there will be no additional risk to users from the extra road vehicle movements generated within the site , or that any such risks can be mitigated/managed.  As the tonnage is relatively small the number of lory movements isn't all that great and it's hoped that this will not be a problem.  It's not traffic on public highways that is a concern.

In terms of taking traffic away from the proposed Leeds Port this is not envisaged as it's expected to transfer there anyway - although Leeds City planners do see Knostrop as providing a potential additional capacity should demand be greater than Stourton can accommodate - an independent study has shown a huge potential demand.  (Stourton is rather better sited for access, has no residential dwellings anywwhere near, and is an industrial zone).

As far as the navigation is concerned a survey has shown a small number of locations where some spot dredging or ploughing will be needed (including Knostrop wharf itself) but this can be organised fairly quickly (as has been done before).

The frustration of the customer, and indeed of the two barge operators involved, can be readily appreciated - as these things take time. 

I hope that helps. 

regards

David L

 

 

Edited by fanshaft
typos
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  • 6 months later...

I see from the Yorkshire Post article https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/people/barge-operator-wins-long-running-battle-canal-river-trust-over-taking-freight-leeds-wharf-2929913 that problems outlined by David are close to being sorted and the traffic could start shortly.

 

Tam

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On 21/01/2020 at 16:11, Alan de Enfield said:

Unfortunately this sort of contradiction is becoming every day fare at C&RT

 

"We want to increase canal traffic ...............…. No you can't use your barges"

 

Surely if he agrees to the same conditions as his Grandfather there shouldn't be a problem :

 

..................his indentures, which stipulate: "He shall not commit fornication nor contract matrimony within the said term. He shall not play at cards or dice tables... he shall not haunt taverns or playhouses"

My indentures that I signed in 1974 had the same stipulations in much the same antique language!?

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On 05/08/2020 at 08:36, Tam & Di said:

I see from the Yorkshire Post article https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/people/barge-operator-wins-long-running-battle-canal-river-trust-over-taking-freight-leeds-wharf-2929913 that problems outlined by David are close to being sorted and the traffic could start shortly.

 

Tam

Indeed yes Tam!  (Sorry for delayed response).  In the longer answer I need to be careful to respect commercial confidentiality.  To recap, in the late 1980s and following a report from the Monoplolies and Mergers Commission British Waterways was obliged to hive off its none core activities, and this included hire fleets, passenger boats and, of course, freight depots and vessels.  The Leeds depot at Knostrop was then run privately, the last operator being Clipper Logistics.  The wharf was always available for use but I don't remember much barge activity (if at all) probably because the operators were road based, though the Clipper manager was keen.  After Clipper vacated BW/The Trust chose to sub let parts of the depot on 'short tenancies' which is permitted under the Leeds City Council wharf protection policy - though the wharf itself and access to it had to be maintained. The income from this goes, of course, towards waterway maintenance.  When AC Marine Aggregates approached the Trust, wishing to move sea  dredged aggregate from Hull to Leeds,  the challenge was to find storage space next to the wharf and the only availability was a large warehouse which wasn't suitable.  We (CBOA/AC) then jointly approached the current occupier of an open site next to the wharf (LiliWaste) and they readily agreed to give up enough space and were very supportive.  Because the Trust has a duty of care towards its tenants it had to commission a traffic management study to be satisfied there was to be no additional risk - this took some time, and then Coronavirus kicked in!  Recently the LiliWaste owner was able to visit Knostrop and agree to the new terms etc which then allowed a lease of the area released to be granted to AC Marine.

I'm told it won't take long to adapt the wharf and the storage area.  A recent study showed a good depth ( 3metres plus for the most part) in the waterway channel but some localised dredging is needed e.g. below Lemonroyd lock and from Knostrop lock to the wharf itself.  I've been told informally this will happen in the next week or two (not yet confirmed).

Branford's barge 'Farndale H' and Humber Barges Ltd's barge 'Fusedale H' have been prepared for the traffic and are looking very smart. It's expected that 'Farndale H' will start operations with 'Fusedale H' being brought in as tonnage increases.

I hope that's useful and interesting.

Kind regards David L

 

 

 

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Thanks for that David. I think you probably know, but in the 80s we did look at a couple of sites in the London area where we could re-open wharves suited for inland craft with grant aid then available, but in the end it was all too problematic. We also ran into problems with the London Dock Labour Board, and although we won our legal case we still got blacked at Tilbury anyway. We then bought a couple of small coasters and moved into sea-dredged aggregates for ARC Marine which was Estuarial and onto the tidal Thames, predominantly for works associated with the channel tunnel. All in the past for us now, but it's always good to hear of new work coming in.

 

Tam

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