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Installing an electrical system in a 57' sailaway


Martin Alma_Azul

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Hello,

I have a 57’ sailaway about to go in the water and need to think about the electrics control and management systems, such as the inverter charger, the BMS and the rest.

Could anyone point me in the direction of a diagram or website that shows me a typical narrowboat electrical layout from the twin alternators to the 12v and 240v fuse boards and everything in between. Many thanks.

Martin

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I don't think there is such a thing as a 'typical' narrowboat as every one is custom built / fitted out, some folk are happy to rough it and have virtually no electrics, others have Microwave, washing machine, dishwashers, TV, all sorts of electronic stuff etc.

 

I would be happy to email you copies of the ISO specifications that detail the type of wiring, connectors, fixing requirements etc for both DC and AC wiring. It is 'best practice' and no harder to follow the 'proper' method than to use the 'wrong methods' for example you DO NOT use domestic twin and earth (the flat grey stuff) on a boat.

 

If you let me have your email address I'll forward them to you and you can then make an informed decision as to whether you follow them or not.

 

 

INTERNATIONAL STANDARD
ISO 10133
Second edition 2000-12-01
Small craft Electrical systems
Extra-low-voltage D.C. installations

 

 

and :

 

 

INTERNATIONAL STANDARD
ISO 13297

Second edition 2000-12-01
Small craft — Electrical systems —
Alternating current installations

 

 

You may also find this one of interest (suggest you do some investigation into the legal requirements for using a qualified Gas Installer)

 

Small craft - Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) systems (ISO 10239:2014)

 

 

 

Sorry if this is teaching you to suck eggs, but are you aware of the Recreational Craft Directive ? (RCD)

 

Are you intending to build it in compliance with the RCD ?

Are you aware of the limitations in selling the boat if you do not build to the RCD ?

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Hi,

Thanks for the diagram, and every  answer begs another question !

If the system has a twin alternator does that mean it doesn’t require a split charger ?

Also, would you kindly have a  more enlarged version of the diagram that includes tthe other  things that would go into a system such as Battery Monitor, Solar Power connections, Battery Management System ?

Thanks

Martin

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18 minutes ago, Martin Alma_Azul said:

Hi,

Thanks for the diagram, and every  answer begs another question !

If the system has a twin alternator does that mean it doesn’t require a split charger ?

Also, would you kindly have a  more enlarged version of the diagram that includes tthe other  things that would go into a system such as Battery Monitor, Solar Power connections, Battery Management System ?

Thanks

Martin

You mention twin alternators and in the same breath 12 and 240V - which I take to mean 12v for the batteries and 240v for dishwasher and the like. Either way you'll need a split charger for that type of set up.

 

A suggestion if I may and if I'm not too late -

Keep everything separate if you can -

  • I ran the radiator and water services pipes in ducting under the floor
  • 240V sockeks (lots of them) under the gunnel on one side
  • Gas pipes on the other sude also under the gunnel
  • Everything else (lighting, horn, tunnel lights, aerial cables, w.h.y in the ceiling on either side.

All had removable panels so that I could add what I had forgotten / now essential - without hassle and ruining the decoration.

There are separate control panels for 240V A/C and 12/24V DC in separate 'boxes' so there's no risk of 'cross contamination'

Takes up a lot of space in the engine area, but avoaids the inevitable "oh you can't do that" from surveyors and the like. 

 

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46 minutes ago, Martin Alma_Azul said:

Hi,

Thanks for the diagram, and every  answer begs another question !

If the system has a twin alternator does that mean it doesn’t require a split charger ?

Also, would you kindly have a  more enlarged version of the diagram that includes tthe other  things that would go into a system such as Battery Monitor, Solar Power connections, Battery Management System ?

Thanks

Martin

When you say twin alternator I'm assuming that you mean one 12V alternator for the engine battery and one 12V alternator for the house batteries. If so, then no split charger required.

A huge wiring diagram isn't really required as it is mostly the same circuit over and over again. Batteries, through a big fuse and a big isolator switch, then to a distribution point, then an isolator switch for each circuit and fuse/breaker, then out to the pump, lights, whatever, then a 0V return back to the battery bank. Other things like battery monitors, solar power connections and battery monitors are best dealt with by looking at the wiring diagrams in the destructions for the particular units you intend to fit. Care with using the right cable, good connections, logical segregation of services labelling, documentation and easy access for the future are equally important

Something that has not been mentioned is wire size. Do calculations based on voltage drop from the there and back length of cable, rather than current carrying capacity. A good book to read, though it is getting rather dated now, is Graham Booth's Narrowboat builders book. I used it a lot when fitting out my sailaway. Do the research, before getting involved with wiring spaghetti. Make sure you understand why it is done a certain way. Ask questions here, but better they are specific ones, rather than "please do all the work for me" ones.

Jen

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2 hours ago, Martin Alma_Azul said:

If the system has a twin alternator does that mean it doesn’t require a split charger ?

It doesn’t ‘require’ one no, but fitting one (they’re not expensive) will reduce charging times and also give some redundancy. 

2 hours ago, Martin Alma_Azul said:

Also, would you kindly have a  more enlarged version of the diagram that includes tthe other  things that would go into a system such as Battery Monitor, Solar Power connections, Battery Management System ?

Battery Monitor shunt position is already on the diagram, as are solar charging connections. 

Edited by WotEver
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If you simply hit ‘reply’ they you’re replying to the thread, not any poster in particular. If you hit ‘quote’ under any particular post then it is apparent that you’re replying to that post. 

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1 minute ago, WotEver said:

If you simply hit ‘reply’ they you’re replying to the thread, not any poster in particular. If you hit ‘quote’ under any particular post then it is apparent that you’re replying to that post. 

Thank you.  That one's not obvious !

I'm getting stick elsewhere for posting about Lithium batteries when there are apparently a lot discussions out there already.

I've only been on the site 24 hours, not familiar with how it works, and I'm already getting told off  :)

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1 minute ago, Martin Alma_Azul said:

Thank you.  That one's not obvious !

I'm getting stick elsewhere for posting about Lithium batteries when there are apparently a lot discussions out there already.

I've only been on the site 24 hours, not familiar with how it works, and I'm already getting told off  :)

Oh don’t worry about getting told off, it happens to all of us. Regarding the Lithium question, it’s a HUGE subject and you’ll learn much by searching for previous threads. Jono’s approach is to throw loads of money at the problem but there are other, far more cost-effective solutions. 

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24 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Oh don’t worry about getting told off, it happens to all of us. Regarding the Lithium question, it’s a HUGE subject and you’ll learn much by searching for previous threads. Jono’s approach is to throw loads of money at the problem but there are other, far more cost-effective solutions. 

Thank you for being polite to me :) 

I'd like to ask you about Jono if that's ok. I really appreciate the way he goes into great detail in his videos. But you right to say he throws shed loads of money at the problem regarding lithium batteries.  Could you kindly point me in the direction of more cost effective solutions ?  

 

I'm on board, as they say,  for lithium batteries but don't want to install them until I know blowing them up is not an option !

I've bought  two Relion 100ah batteries.

Thanks.

Martin

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13 minutes ago, Martin Alma_Azul said:

Could you kindly point me in the direction of more cost effective solutions ?  

As Wotever says do a search on this forum because there are several topics on that subject but also our member Dr Bob distilled the approaches members here have taken into three or four articles for Canal Boat magazine. Maybe you can get hold of the last three or four issues or if you are really lucky Dr Bob might be willing to email you copies of his originals, you will have to wait to see if he volunteers.

 

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5 hours ago, Martin Alma_Azul said:

Hi,

Thanks for the diagram, and every  answer begs another question !

If the system has a twin alternator does that mean it doesn’t require a split charger ?

Also, would you kindly have a  more enlarged version of the diagram that includes tthe other  things that would go into a system such as Battery Monitor, Solar Power connections, Battery Management System ?

Thanks

Martin

On the dual alternator question, we would need to know roughly what alternators are fitted. For example on our boat with a Beta 43, we have a 45A alternator that just feeds the starter battery, and a 175A alternator for the domestics. It is not worth having some sort of split charge system to merge the output of the 45A alternator with the 175A one, because most of the time the batteries aren’t capable of absorbing even 175A.

 

Some engines have 2 similarly sized alternators eg 2 x 70A, and for those it probably is worth connecting their outputs together and using a split charge system.

 

Also worth mentioning that not all alternators are 12v, we actually have 3 alternators, the third is the high voltage alternator that feeds the TravelPower. So my point is that, whilst this forum is a great resource, you only get accurate answers if you ask accurate and detailed questions with all the relevant info.

Edited by nicknorman
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58 minutes ago, Martin Alma_Azul said:

I've only been on the site 24 hours, not familiar with how it works, and I'm already getting told off  :)

Scroll up to the top of the screen.  ok with that?  There is a symbol at the top which looks like a male symbol with the arrow head chopped off (ouch).  It is a Search symbol representing a magnifying glass.  Click on it.  A bar will appear with the word "Search".  Type in here with words associated with what you're interested in, and hit Enter.  A list of posts will appear which should be useful, in your case quite a lot. Spend many happy hours trying to comprehend these. When you are up to speed, post any further questions on here.  Simply posting a question on its own works well for anything that has a one-post reply but doesn't work for minefields like the one you are interested in. :)

Further recommended reading if you haven't already seen it:

http://www.tb-training.co.uk/cover.html

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/smartgauge.html

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/95003-battery-charging-primer/

 

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2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

On the dual alternator question, we would need to know roughly what alternators are fitted. For example on our boat with a Beta 43, we have a 45A alternator that just feeds the starter battery, and a 175A alternator for the domestics. It is not worth having some sort of split charge system to merge the output of the 45A alternator with the 175A one, because most of the time the batteries aren’t capable of absorbing even 175A.

 

Some engines have 2 similarly sized alternators eg 2 x 70A, and for those it probably is worth connecting their outputs together and using a split charge system.

 

Also worth mentioning that not all alternators are 12v, we actually have 3 alternators, the third is the high voltage alternator that feeds the TravelPower. So my point is that, whilst this forum is a great resource, you only get accurate answers if you ask accurate and detailed questions with all the relevant info.

Hi Nick,

Thanks for your reply and for your advice, it's appreciated. Yes, I have the same alternators as you.  Still on a learning curve about electrics !

Apparently you're a bit of a monster ?  I think not !  I've only been on the site 24 hours and I'm already trying to work out how to delete my account.

There are some people seem to think request for advice = response with sarcasm. Not you though :)

Martin

2 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

Scroll up to the top of the screen.  ok with that?  There is a symbol at the top which looks like a male symbol with the arrow head chopped off (ouch).  It is a Search symbol representing a magnifying glass.  Click on it.  A bar will appear with the word "Search".  Type in here with words associated with what you're interested in, and hit Enter.  A list of posts will appear which should be useful, in your case quite a lot. Spend many happy hours trying to comprehend these. When you are up to speed, post any further questions on here.  Simply posting a question on its own works well for anything that has a one-post reply but doesn't work for minefields like the one you are interested in. :)

Further recommended reading if you haven't already seen it:

http://www.tb-training.co.uk/cover.html

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/smartgauge.html

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/95003-battery-charging-primer/

 

Thanks for advice. I'm glad somebody finally explained to me what a search button is in easy to understand words. 

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We're all bonkers on here in our different ways, but there is loads of useful stuff, once you get familiar with the way this forum operates.  Don't give up! :)

 

Added wiring pic.  Can't give credits as don't have them. Is on this forum somewhere.  Maybe in the links already given?

DCwiring-1.jpg

Edited by system 4-50
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4 hours ago, Martin Alma_Azul said:

Thank you.  That one's not obvious !

I'm getting stick elsewhere for posting about Lithium batteries when there are apparently a lot discussions out there already.

I've only been on the site 24 hours, not familiar with how it works, and I'm already getting told off  :)

Don't worry about getting stick, just tell whoever to bugger off. Batteries are a minefield. There are people who live aboard for ten minutes then try to reinvent the wheel. Fla do an admirable job, well they have for my 30 years of living aboard. I suggest you try Fla before throwing £££££ at lithium. You will probably find you too get good service from them and vastly easier to source and fit. But listen to bods with 2 years experience if you want to ?

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16 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Don't worry about getting stick, just tell whoever to bugger off. Batteries are a minefield. There are people who live aboard for ten minutes then try to reinvent the wheel. Fla do an admirable job, well they have for my 30 years of living aboard. I suggest you try Fla before throwing £££££ at lithium. You will probably find you too get good service from them and vastly easier to source and fit. But listen to bods with 2 years experience if you want to ?

Flooded Lead Acid, or AGM [Absorbed Glass Matt] belong to the same family, but Lithiums are a different beast. 

There are a few other transgenders, but they don't seem to be common this side of The Pond.

Note to Boris, don't encourage newbies to swear, or he'll be moderated before the day is out!

Edited by LadyG
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21 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Don't worry about getting stick, just tell whoever to bugger off. Batteries are a minefield. There are people who live aboard for ten minutes then try to reinvent the wheel. Fla do an admirable job, well they have for my 30 years of living aboard. I suggest you try Fla before throwing £££££ at lithium. You will probably find you too get good service from them and vastly easier to source and fit. But listen to bods with 2 years experience if you want to ?

Hi again Boris,

Did you know boater Harry Gwynne was a Brexit Party Candidate at the last election ?

https://twitter.com/harry_gwynne?lang=en

I reckon his boat will sink on 1st Feb ?

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16 minutes ago, Martin Alma_Azul said:

Hi again Boris,

Did you know boater Harry Gwynne was a Brexit Party Candidate at the last election ?

https://twitter.com/harry_gwynne?lang=en

I reckon his boat will sink on 1st Feb ?

Martin, you’re new and probably haven’t read all the terms and conditions properly so here’s a tip: NO POLITICAL POSTS outside of the political area of the forum. That’s two you’ve posted already, and you only have a post count of 11. 
 

 

Edited by WotEver
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6 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Martin, you’re new and probably haven’t read all the terms and conditions properly so here’s a tip: NO POLITICAL POSTS outside of the political area of the forum. That’s two you’ve posted already, and you only have a post count of 11. 
 

 

Hi Wotever, thanks for advice. Can you show me how to delete my account please.  This forum is not for me. I've spent 1/2 an hour trying to find out to delete my account but there doesn't seem to be an option.

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15 minutes ago, Martin Alma_Azul said:

Hi Wotever, thanks for advice. Can you show me how to delete my account please.  This forum is not for me. I've spent 1/2 an hour trying to find out to delete my account but there doesn't seem to be an option.

There is no such option, so I suggest you just sign in as a guest and don't post 'till you have got hang of things.

Thunderboat is a more "relaxed" forum, but nothing like the same source of information of the type from which you will benefit .

Edited by LadyG
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