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AndrewGVT

Petter PJ3W

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Hi all,

 

We're just about to lift the poorly Petter PJ3W out of tadworth for an overhaul.

 

You can hear the engine here:

 

It sounds more like a bolinder running flat out!

 

The engine was originally cooled by a pipe running round the outside of the swim, however when this failed it was converted to raw water cooling by the addition of a bit of garden hose out the engine ole doors! 

 

I was wondering if anyone has any experience of these engines and specifically how they are cooled? I'd ideally like to fit a raw water cooled heat exchanger to cool the coolant. Was this an option on the marine PJ engines? 

 

Also, does anyone know any other boats fitted with a PJ3? I think Banstead has a air cooled PJ3?

 

Cheers,

Andrew 

 

IMG-20200117-WA0012.jpg

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That will explain all the hosepipes when you came past last year!!

Good luck with it, I'm sure Tim will do the steelwork proud.

 

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Doesn't sound too bad at all, but definitely not running on three cylinders. 

  • Greenie 1

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2 hours ago, AndrewGVT said:

Hi all,

 

We're just about to lift the poorly Petter PJ3W out of tadworth for an overhaul.

 

The engine was originally cooled by a pipe running round the outside of the swim, however when this failed it was converted to raw water cooling by the addition of a bit of garden hose out the engine ole doors! 

 

I was wondering if anyone has any experience of these engines and specifically how they are cooled? I'd ideally like to fit a raw water cooled heat exchanger to cool the coolant. Was this an option on the marine PJ engines? 

 

Also, does anyone know any other boats fitted with a PJ3? I think Banstead has a air cooled PJ3?

 

Cheers,

Andrew 

You are quite right in that BANSTEAD is currently fitted with an air cooled Petter PJ3, so along with the water cooled version in TADWORTH makes a total of two in Grand Union motors - and I think there is one in a Grand Union butty but I can not remember which one.

 

I am not sure what you mean when you write "I'd ideally like to fit a raw water cooled heat exchanger to cool the coolant". In my experience when using raw water for cooling there is no heat exchanger, just a mud box and a pump. I would be inclined to repair and improve the pipe running around the outside of the swim as in a closed cooling system anti-freeze can be added to reduce the danger of frost damage whilst reducing internal corrosion, and eliminates the need to drain the engine during cold spells. This is what I have on my boat as shown in this image, along with two pipes on the other side:

1543609376_OTLEYatBrinklowBoatServicesdrydock22June2018-coolingpipes.jpg.3493c681402be7c6ec806823a5c03799.jpg

 

My engine has a heat exchanger on the exhaust manifold (Bowman ?) but I do not fully understand the purpose of this, and also a heat exchanger to cool the gearbox oil which I do understand :captain: 

 

Edited by pete harrison

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We fitted the PJ3 to Banstead at Boot Wharf in 2000. ISTR to remember that it had a very substantial adaptor plate carying the ?Hurth 250 mechanical box. It certainly did not lack power when we paired Banstead with Meteor. For heavy full length boats the PJ series either wet or dry are a good choice. The air cooled version has of course a separate cooling fan rather than relying on the flywheel and this I suspect means that overall the cooling is more effective than either Lister or Armstrong Siddeley managed to achieve. Regards, HughC.

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10 hours ago, BWM said:

Doesn't sound too bad at all, but definitely not running on three cylinders. 

Yep doesn't sound that awful to me, either, though I'm no expert.

Seems to go well when running fast, and not making an unduly large amount of smoke either.

What are the most "poorly" things about it?

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9 hours ago, pete harrison said:

You are quite right in that BANSTEAD is currently fitted with an air cooled Petter PJ3, so along with the water cooled version in TADWORTH makes a total of two in Grand Union motors - and I think there is one in a Grand Union butty but I can not remember which one.

 

I am not sure what you mean when you write "I'd ideally like to fit a raw water cooled heat exchanger to cool the coolant". In my experience when using raw water for cooling there is no heat exchanger, just a mud box and a pump. I would be inclined to repair and improve the pipe running around the outside of the swim as in a closed cooling system anti-freeze can be added to reduce the danger of frost damage whilst reducing internal corrosion, and eliminates the need to drain the engine during cold spells. This is what I have on my boat as shown in this image, along with two pipes on the other side:

1543609376_OTLEYatBrinklowBoatServicesdrydock22June2018-coolingpipes.jpg.3493c681402be7c6ec806823a5c03799.jpg

 

My engine has a heat exchanger on the exhaust manifold (Bowman ?) but I do not fully understand the purpose of this, and also a heat exchanger to cool the gearbox oil which I do understand :captain: 

 


It is not uncommon to have a heat exchanger on a raw water cooled narrow boat engine.

My first ever boat, "Kerbau", (ex BCN day boat), had a Perkins P3 that used this arrangement.

The engine is cooled by a circuit that only involves the engine and one side of the heat exchanger, so the water circulating in the engine is not raw canal water.  There are two advantages of this.  Firstly it can have anti-freeze in so no need to drain the engine itself.  Secondly you will not get a build up of scale because the water passing through is not "new" water all the time, all with a potential to leave deposits.

The other side of the heat exchanger is where the water drawn from the canal gets passed through, and returned to the canal, so only this part can silt up, not the engine itself, and only this part needs draining to prevent freezing in winter - a very much simpler task.  This bit should have a mud box in, (though Kerbau did not - one of its many issues).

If your Perkins is similar to our P3, (which it may well be), it is possible you have a similar arrangement, but with what would be the raw water cooling instead connected to those pipes.  The tell tale sign will be if your engine has two water pumps, rather than one, as there will be one for each circuit.

Some pictures would probably easily confirm what you have.

If your gearbox is water cooled, I'm guessing it may be a more modern unit like a PRM?  Kerbau had an old mechanical Parsons box, just like those fitted to the Petter PD2s, so no water cooling as involved.

The real secret though is to get an air cooled engine - it's hard to freeze one of those up ,or starve it of water!

 

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3 hours ago, alan_fincher said:


It is not uncommon to have a heat exchanger on a raw water cooled narrow boat engine.

My first ever boat, "Kerbau", (ex BCN day boat), had a Perkins P3 that used this arrangement.

The engine is cooled by a circuit that only involves the engine and one side of the heat exchanger, so the water circulating in the engine is not raw canal water.  There are two advantages of this.  Firstly it can have anti-freeze in so no need to drain the engine itself.  Secondly you will not get a build up of scale because the water passing through is not "new" water all the time, all with a potential to leave deposits.

The other side of the heat exchanger is where the water drawn from the canal gets passed through, and returned to the canal, so only this part can silt up, not the engine itself, and only this part needs draining to prevent freezing in winter - a very much simpler task.  This bit should have a mud box in, (though Kerbau did not - one of its many issues).

If your Perkins is similar to our P3, (which it may well be), it is possible you have a similar arrangement, but with what would be the raw water cooling instead connected to those pipes.  The tell tale sign will be if your engine has two water pumps, rather than one, as there will be one for each circuit.

Some pictures would probably easily confirm what you have.

If your gearbox is water cooled, I'm guessing it may be a more modern unit like a PRM?  Kerbau had an old mechanical Parsons box, just like those fitted to the Petter PD2s, so no water cooling as involved.

The real secret though is to get an air cooled engine - it's hard to freeze one of those up ,or starve it of water!

 

I really ought to stop getting involved in threads that I do not know enough about, and clearly this is another one of those. I am struggling enough with the stuff I am supposed to know about at present :captain: 

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I put this engine in Tadworth after the last PD2 broke its crank. Can’t remember the exact year  but around 1980. It came from a Trinity house generator set and had only done 400 hours. I paired it to a prm box and used a modified truck shaft to the stern tube.

we decided to run an external pipe right round the swim to act as the cooling as I can’t remember there being a mud box. The job was done at Braunston when Balliol owned it. Think it was probably scaffold tube.

The engine came from Bryco in Daventry. I doubt if it has had a service or regular oil changes for many years but it doesn’t sound to bad. 
Afraid it’s not a classic engine but at the time at start of the camping season there wasn’t much choice however it’s been in the boat now for around 40 years.

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On 19/01/2020 at 21:55, Dav and Pen said:

I put this engine in Tadworth after the last PD2 broke its crank. Can’t remember the exact year  but around 1980. It came from a Trinity house generator set and had only done 400 hours. I paired it to a prm box and used a modified truck shaft to the stern tube.

we decided to run an external pipe right round the swim to act as the cooling as I can’t remember there being a mud box. The job was done at Braunston when Balliol owned it. Think it was probably scaffold tube.

The engine came from Bryco in Daventry. I doubt if it has had a service or regular oil changes for many years but it doesn’t sound to bad. 
Afraid it’s not a classic engine but at the time at start of the camping season there wasn’t much choice however it’s been in the boat now for around 40 years.

Yeah I have to admit at first I wasn't to sure about the engine, most of my experience is with h series listers and I know first hand how bullet proof they are. But having spent a little bit of time with the petter now I've grown to like it, it's very easy to work on and theres certainly no concern about its historical importance, to me the time it spent pioneering in the retail coal trade was just as important as its work on regular carrying. It certainly has more historic relevance than a HR2 or the like.

IMG-20200117-WA0012.jpg

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