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Electrics, cable, amps


Nemysys

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13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

"You" are the builder of a 'sailaway', or if you replace the engine, or have it lengthened, or replace the gas piping, or ………………..

 

And if it wasn't me that did the alterations, or built it non-compliantly?

 

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Surely the claim would be against the builder....

 

 

 

surely any claim in law can only be between the parties who are directly involved (i.e. the injured party and the owner of the boat), as if there is a virtual contract between them.  It would then be up to the defendant to claim from his contractor.

Edited by Murflynn
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4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And if it wasn't me that did the alterations, or built it non-compliantly?

 

 

 

 

I'm agreeing with you that it is the "builder" that is responsible, but some seem to take the builder as being the hull manufacturer which may not be the case.

 

If you employ someone to replace the gas piping, then you are still the builder and it is your responsibility to ensure that your employee does the work in compliance.

 

From the RCD :

 

Where subcontracting takes place, the manufacturer must retain the overall control for the product and ensure that he receives all the information that is necessary to fulfil his responsibilities according to the Directive. The manufacturer who subcontracts some or all of his activities may not discharge himself from his responsibilities.

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4 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

surely any claim in law can only be between the parties who are directly involved (i.e. the injured party and the owner of the boat), as if there is a virtual contract between them.  It would then be up to the defendant to claim from his contractor.

 

I guess I'm wondering why the owner of the boat would be liable given he has fulfilled his 'duty of care' to do things by the book, but the builder failed to do the work compliance with the RCD.

 

 

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19 hours ago, David Mack said:

Does the 5 year rule apply to subsequent modifications?

Just found this :

 

A watercraft subject to a major craft conversion as defined in Article 3(7) must still comply with the requirements of the Directive when it is made available or put into service after conversion. Such converted watercraft shall be subject to post-construction assessment according to the Article 19(3) of the Directive. The provision does not apply to watercraft placed on the market or put into service before 16th of June 1998.

 

Which would again suggest that the RCD is 'for life' (not just for Christmas).

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  • 7 months later...

I need to put a light on the front of my boat - at the moment it has a 240v lights, which is switched from inside the cabin, and as I am on my own, there is no way I can run into and out of the boat to turn it on and off... 

I have bought these lights - https://amzn.to/34gEgZr 

They are 27w, 12v - so now I need to run a cable the length of the boat...  From what I can see, using the cable guide,  a 4mm cable should be OK as the cable run will be about 11m from battery to light (via a switch) - does that sound about right to you?  I am thinking one light will be bright enough for tunnels and as I will be running the engine when I will want to use it the voltage drop should not matter too much as it should be 14v coming from the alternator.

 

My next question is - where do you buy the cable from? 
The only thing I can see on Screwfix in 4mm flexi is Green/Yellow 7-core - I guess it would do the job, but I should probably use black and red to do it properly... 
RS Components - appear to have it - https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/8114466/ - but do not offer any convenient shipping/pick up options

 

Would 12AGW speaker wire work? (AMAZON) - It looks like it should and £18 for 15m seems like a good price... 
Pure Copper Stereo Audio Speaker Wire & Cable - Made in Germany - 2x4mm² - 15m - I know it says Audio speaker, but it is copper, which surely would work?

 

One more question - looking at it, I should have a fuse in there somewhere too?


Thank you so much for your thoughts - :) - love this forum

(Going to wire up a horn as well!)

 

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The speaker wire you propose is a bit unconventional but has plenty of copper. The insulation might be a bit thin or prone to chafing, it’s hard to say. So if you do use it make sure it isn’t going past sharp edges etc. Yes you need a fuse at the battery end in the positive, unless you are taking the power from a distribution board with built in fusing.

 

i will just say that these sort of lights are a complete menace on the canals. Way too bright, and just a wadge of light indiscriminately pointing forwards. In the same way that driving in a car with your light permanently on main beam would be - or worse. Ok for single direction tunnels but extremely antisocial for 2-way tunnels. At the very least, make sure it is pointing right up at the roof and or don’t be surprised if people coming the other way crash into you - you have made it impossible for them to see where they are going!

Edited by nicknorman
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Have to agree with @nicknorman (Yikes!). Those lights are way to bright for canal tunnels with two way working. You won't make yourself popular. As you'll have the engine on, the efficiency of LED's isn't required. A car type fog light would be fine. https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/products/12v-lamp-wipac-5-1-2-chrome-driving-s6007-vn-004

The speaker cable would work, but the insulation is thin (agreeing with @nicknorman again!). I'd look at suppliers of automotive cable. https://www.vehiclewiringproducts.co.uk/ are good, as are https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/. I've used both before now. 

Deffo need a fuse. The two suppliers above can sort you out with something suitable. (Three times in one post!)

 

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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Thank you both for that... I am thinking about sending them back and getting this instead - 

https://amzn.to/3hh2WVx - 20W Portable LED Work Light Cordless Rechargeable IP65 12v LED Light Hand Lamp

 

Much more flexible in its use and I could have it up at the back with me, so if a boat is coming the other way, I could shield it a bit, or at least turn it to face to the side... 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Cinimod said:

Thank you both for that... I am thinking about sending them back and getting this instead - 

https://amzn.to/3hh2WVx - 20W Portable LED Work Light Cordless Rechargeable IP65 12v LED Light Hand Lamp

 

Much more flexible in its use and I could have it up at the back with me, so if a boat is coming the other way, I could shield it a bit, or at least turn it to face to the side... 

 

 

Still too bright. Also, boaters coming the other way are sort of expecting a light at the bow, not the stern, which could confuse them. You don't want confused people steering 20 tons of  boat at you! Directly correlating LED brightness to Watts and comparing that with Watts from an incandescent bulb isn't easy, but 20W LED is more like 100W plus on an incandescent. Also LED light tends to be biased to blue, which destroys peoples night vision coming the other way. Maybe 10W in LED and warm white, rather than cool white if you absolutely must have LED. Or 50W in incandescent / halogen.

 

Jen

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However, just to return to this...

3 hours ago, Cinimod said:

I need to put a light on the front of my boat - at the moment it has a 240v lights, which is switched from inside the cabin, and as I am on my own, there is no way I can run into and out of the boat to turn it on and off... 

Why would you need to turn it on and off? Turn it on before entering the tunnel and leave it on until you stop. That doesn’t solve the problem but it might address the workflow. :)

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33 minutes ago, WotEver said:

However, just to return to this...

Why would you need to turn it on and off?

Signalling ...

 

We heard last week about the lack of acknowledgement or response to horn signals in Harecastle Tunnel, so the lack of horn isn't a problem.

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Actually, 2 days ago, I rewired a boat that according to the surveyor had no working tunnel light or horn.

He was wrong....you pulled the tunnel light switch, and then when you wanted light, pressed the horn button, it worked. 

The poor old horn never got a look in. 

So,replaced the chockblocks and stuck the cables in the right places.

....and got bitten by a massive spider whilst my head was under the gunnels.

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4 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Actually, 2 days ago, I rewired a boat that according to the surveyor had no working tunnel light or horn.

He was wrong....you pulled the tunnel light switch, and then when you wanted light, pressed the horn button, it worked. 

The poor old horn never got a look in. 

 

Did you try Nav Lights on and press engine stop for the horn? :D

 

I only ask because the first time @Duck-n-Dive tried to use my horn he pushed the (identical) engine stop button instead, which was less than useful in a blind bridgehole with an oncoming waterskier ...

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7 hours ago, Cinimod said:

I need to put a light on the front of my boat - at the moment it has a 240v lights, which is switched from inside the cabin, and as I am on my own, there is no way I can run into and out of the boat to turn it on and off... 

 

I have a headlight that lives in the cupboard inside the front of the cabin. When I need to turn it on I have to go to the front of the boat, delve around in the cupboard and fish out the lamp, which is on a short stalk with a square baseplate, wedge the edge of the baseplate under the front deck hatch, and ensure the light is pointing generally a little up and to one side. Unwind the cable from around the stalk. Plug the cable in to the socket in the front well - there is no switch (although there is a fuse) so the light comes on at this point. Make my way to the back of the boat. Head into the tunnel.  And after exiting the tunnel I have to do the reverse. Unless I'm somewhere like Barnton/Saltersford, where I might as well just leave it on for the next tunnel. 

What's the problem?

  • Happy 1
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8 hours ago, tree monkey said:

Yes, most of them won't though, unless obviously there is a Matty to sample 

 

About 15 years ago I began experiencing occasional problems with a swollen and painful big toe.

 

One day I could barely walk so I went to A&E as I had an important meeting that afternoon.  The lovely lady Indian doctor who saw me diagnosed a spider bite and gave me some ineffective pills. ?

 

Next time it happened I went to my GP. He diagnosed gout which the blood test he ordered proved to be correct...

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16 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

About 15 years ago I began experiencing occasional problems with a swollen and painful big toe.

 

One day I could barely walk so I went to A&E as I had an important meeting that afternoon.  The lovely lady Indian doctor who saw me diagnosed a spider bite and gave me some ineffective pills. ?

 

Next time it happened I went to my GP. He diagnosed gout which the blood test he ordered proved to be correct...

Ouch, gout is nasty

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  • 1 year later...

Not sure it was worth another topic, but I need to wire up a couple of small bilge pumps. 1100 GPH, 3amp

   

 I figured out somewhere that 14 Gauge wire is the right size. But when I shop I just see amps and awg rating and mm numbers and it's too confusing! Most of the time they don't use the word "gauge".  I think perhaps I need 14/3 awg?

 

Most of the things on the boat, lights and other pumps, seem to use wire about thickness of thicker speaker wire whatever that may be. (I assume it's 14 gauge!)   But I'd like to get the twined black and red in the black sheath as I'd be running it under the floor in the hull. 10m would be good for my purposes. . I plan to just two-wire them with a float switch, rather than use the automatic pumps with a switch and manual option.  If ever my they fail I can easily access them and fix or trigger the switch. 

 

Everyone's requirements are a bit different of course. but I'm  on a small narrowboat and don't have far to go and hopefully not much to pump! It's more as a failsafe. I just can't figure out what wire I need exactly?  Obviously one draw back to buying online it not being able to see in person what you're purchasing! 

 

 

 

 

Edited by kellyjllek
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AWG - American Wire Gauge - there are plenty of conversion tables on the web, 14AWG is just over 2 mm2 CCSA - nearest metric equivalent is 2.5 mm2 CCSA so slightly bigger. This table gives 14AWG a maximum current rating of 32A for "chassis wiring" and 5.9A for "power transmission", they also quote resistance per KILOMETER  so presumably the "power transmission" rating is for the (very) long distance stuff.

 

https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

 

springy 

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42 minutes ago, kellyjllek said:

Not sure it was worth another topic, but I need to wire up a couple of small bilge pumps. 1100 GPH, 3amp

   

 I figured out somewhere that 14 Gauge wire is the right size. But when I shop I just see amps and awg rating and mm numbers and it's too confusing! Most of the time they don't use the word "gauge".  I think perhaps I need 14/3 awg?

 

Most of the things on the boat, lights and other pumps, seem to use wire about thickness of thicker speaker wire whatever that may be. (I assume it's 14 gauge!)   But I'd like to get the twined black and red in the black sheath as I'd be running it under the floor in the hull. 10m would be good for my purposes. . I plan to just two-wire them with a float switch, rather than use the automatic pumps with a switch and manual option.  If ever my they fail I can easily access them and fix or trigger the switch. 

 

Everyone's requirements are a bit different of course. but I'm  on a small narrowboat and don't have far to go and hopefully not much to pump! It's more as a failsafe. I just can't figure out what wire I need exactly?  Obviously one draw back to buying online it not being able to see in person what you're purchasing! 

 

 

On all cable runs of more than about 4m (2m out and 2m back) ignore any amperage raing you see relating to cables and the longer the run the more vital this is.

 

To find the correct size of cable you need to calculate it to minimize the volt drop along its length.There are a number of online cable size calculators of you can use:

 

0.0164 x run length x current divided by the conductor cross sectional area.

 

 

Current in amps, length in meters and area is the conductor cross sectional area (CCSA) in sq mm. Aim for less than 1 volt of volt drop on most circuits and less than 0.5  volts on charging and starter circuits.

 

As far as I am concerned AWG is a nasty American standard so much prefer the CCSA sq mm one that is often referred to as just mm.

 

As all marine cables should/must be multi-strand with a minimum number of strands (19 I think)  you will often see 28/030, that is 28 strands with each strand being 0.30mm in diameter. As long as the cable meets the minimum strand number, which 28/0.30 does, just rely on the CCSA and your calculation.

 

A higher CCSA than calculated is electrically fine but possibly not financially.

 

As you are talking bilge pump then you would be well advised to use tinned multi-strand cable rather than plain copper for the better corrosion resistance.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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