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meerdog

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I have been reading a CRT report that says they are replacing 118 lock gates during this winters stoppages. According to their own publicity they are responsible for 1580 locks. If we say approximately 3 gates per lock that's 4740. So all gates should be renewed in the next 40 years. That's not ideal is it or have I got my figures all wrong? I'm not usually a CRT knocker just looking forward to lots of trouble free boating.

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14 minutes ago, meerdog said:

I'm not usually a CRT knocker just looking forward to lots of trouble free boating.

 

I think your figures are broadly right but for one thing. Don't new gates cause trouble, immediately the crew leave site?

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I think your figures are broadly right but for one thing. Don't new gates cause trouble, immediately the crew leave site?

 

 

I think that is often true, some of the old ones seem better but 40 years is pushing it.

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2 minutes ago, Slim said:

Well, my glass is half empty.

 

I think when the shyte hits the fan, mahoosive pressure from the Great British Public will come to bear on the gummint to keep the canals going. Almost all peeps out there have a massive affection for canals, most of thems havin' never even bin in a bote.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Slim said:

Does anyone expect to see the system last another 40 years?

It's been in a far worse state in the past, people clubbed together to bring it back to what it is today. I very much doubt it will be the same as it is now in 40 years, it may have gone through a few cycles of decline and regeneration in that time, but I'm pretty sure it will still be functional in some way or another. 

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1 hour ago, Slim said:

Does anyone expect to see the system last another 40 years?

I shall be too long gone to care. The next 20 years would be wonderful but I fear that my maintenance will not cope either.

Some of the steel gates installed in the '70 are still perfectly usable, Bosley flight for example. And the few remaining cast iron ones will be there when we have gone the way of the dinosaurs.

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9 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I think when the shyte hits the fan, mahoosive pressure from the Great British Public will come to bear on the gummint to keep the canals going. Almost all peeps out there have a massive affection for canals, most of thems havin' never even bin in a bote.

 

 

At this moment in time you could, possiby, be right but to my mind it would be the older generation that would be up in arms. In a few years we, the older generation that is, will all be dead and gone and in my opinion the up and coming powers that be, aka the younger generation, do not care about very much at all other than what is happening in their fantasy phone worlds.

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10 hours ago, meerdog said:

I have been reading a CRT report that says they are replacing 118 lock gates during this winters stoppages. According to their own publicity they are responsible for 1580 locks. If we say approximately 3 gates per lock that's 4740. So all gates should be renewed in the next 40 years. That's not ideal is it or have I got my figures all wrong? I'm not usually a CRT knocker just looking forward to lots of trouble free boating.

There was another recent thread where this was pointed out and we came to roughly the same figures. Oak lock gates seem to last 25 years so....

 

10 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

On balance, I do. 

 

 

Until the balance beam rots through and falls off when someone tries to open the gate. Damage by a boater according to CaRT.

39 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Luckily, the CRT accountant has managed to prove them wrong... ;)

 

Accountants. Experts in everything, not just bean counting. ?

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41 minutes ago, pete.i said:

At this moment in time you could, possiby, be right but to my mind it would be the older generation that would be up in arms. In a few years we, the older generation that is, will all be dead and gone and in my opinion the up and coming powers that be, aka the younger generation, do not care about very much at all other than what is happening in their fantasy phone worlds.

Except in London and the K&A where younger generations are taking to the canals...If only CRT and other boating organisations could find a way to make this work betrer and work across the country???

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49 minutes ago, pete.i said:

aka the younger generation, do not care about very much at all other than what is happening in their fantasy phone worlds.

 

I have to take issue with you here. Youngsters are more tuned in to politics nowadays than they have been for a generation at least, possibly two. 

 

Ask anyone between 17 and say 30 if they have any views on Brexit or climate change if you don't believe me.

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1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

Luckily, the CRT accountant has managed to prove them wrong... ;)

 

In some ways CaRT are in a 'damned if they, damned if they don't' situation:

 

One approach to gate replacement is to do regular surveys and identify those that need replacement. Another approach is to estimate the lifetime and replace on that basis regardless of the current state (like used to happen with street lights, IIRC. Both of these approaches have been castigated by those intent on finding fault! 

 

At the moment, with cash under such pressure (even more than the water is!) developing better monitoring and predictive capabilities to maximise the benefit from every gate replacement is where I would want to go. But prediction always carries the risk that something fails sooner than expected - but the only way to avoid that is to replace them as soon as they have been fitted .  . .

 

Most large physical engineering needs a phase of 'bedding in' so it is always best to allow follow up visits to make final adjustments - ever seen a snagging list for a house builder?

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30 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

- ever seen a snagging list for a house builder?

 

The interesting thing about house builder snagging lists is give the same house to two different people, and they would each come with wildly different snagging lists. Same happens with new boats.

 

So it is in the builders' interest to just throw the house up with only the most cursory checks, then hand it over and let the customer come up with the things they find unacceptable.  

 

This is what house builders have learned to do and why everyone moans about poor new build quality.

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38 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I have to take issue with you here. Youngsters are more tuned in to politics nowadays than they have been for a generation at least, possibly two. 

 

Ask anyone between 17 and say 30 if they have any views on Brexit or climate change if you don't believe me.

Agree wholeheartedly with this, though i'm just outside of the top of your age bracket. Since all the, soon to be underground, older generation decided what the future was going to hold for me (and any kids I should have in the future) with Brexit I've taken a very big interest in politics. Mostly reading/watching/listening to things about it on my phone.

 

I also think that younger generations have a much better appreciation of mental health in general so are likely to support green spaces (such as canals)

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1 hour ago, pete.i said:

other than what is happening in their fantasy phone worlds.

Thing is, unless you're spying on everyone, you don't know what it is they're doing on their phones. I'm sure a lot of mindless scrolling goes on, but we we are able to communicate now in a way like never before to spread ideas and become interested in things we may never have even known about without this interconnectedness. 

I've seen people of all generations with their face in their phone, they could be doing anything from reading the Daily Mail, posting on Canalworld, or doing something really productive. 

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17 hours ago, meerdog said:

I have been reading a CRT report that says they are replacing 118 lock gates during this winters stoppages. According to their own publicity they are responsible for 1580 locks. If we say approximately 3 gates per lock that's 4740. So all gates should be renewed in the next 40 years. That's not ideal is it or have I got my figures all wrong? I'm not usually a CRT knocker just looking forward to lots of trouble free boating.

If you search, you can find several examples of CRT and BW stating the the average life expectancy of lock gate is 25 years.


Confusingly, in the past CRT has provided figures based on 'gates' (the two half gates on a mitre gate counting as one gate) and 'leaves' (the two half gates counting as two leaves). 

Based on figures obtained under FOI for 'gates' and 'leaves', a better estimate might be 3.4 rather than 3. However, it might be that mitre gates have a lower life than single leaf gates which might be distorting the figures.


I don't have figures for  2017/18 and 2018/19 but in the previous five years CRT replaced on average 88 lock gates or 151 lock gate leaves per year. They need to be replacing nearer 200.


 

Edited by Allan(nb Albert)
typo
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6 hours ago, Dave123 said:

Except in London and the K&A where younger generations are taking to the canals...If only CRT and other boating organisations could find a way to make this work betrer and work across the country???

Yes they are into boating in a big way, but not into moving about the system. A major cruise for some/most of them is anything over 50 miles in a week for a summer holiday. Some do cruise a lot but a very small percentage, probably more don't even manage the 20 miles in a year. If they were not able to move beyond the water point many would be satisfied.  CRT still get their license fee and have virtually no maintenance as those pesky boaters don't smash their locks.

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25 minutes ago, Detling said:

Yes they are into boating in a big way, but not into moving about the system. A major cruise for some/most of them is anything over 50 miles in a week for a summer holiday. Some do cruise a lot but a very small percentage, probably more don't even manage the 20 miles in a year. If they were not able to move beyond the water point many would be satisfied.  CRT still get their license fee and have virtually no maintenance as those pesky boaters don't smash their locks.

I think you are right in the two areas mentioned moving is a real pain for them, they have to organise mass movements so they still have a space at the end!! All joking aside I think if you averaged out all the miles done by all the boats licensed the average mileage would be very low per boat

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On 10/01/2020 at 14:30, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Confusingly, in the past CRT has provided figures based on 'gates' (the two half gates on a mitre gate counting as one gate) and 'leaves' (the two half gates counting as two leaves). 

If this is correct and CRT count a set of mitre gates as one 'gate', then taking the figures fron the op I make it an average of 26.8 years which sounds about right.

 

Makes sense as you wouldn't plan to replace a single gate on a pair of mitre gates, surely they'd always be replaced as a pair?

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