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Goosey Gander

Roving Trader Business Insurance Difficulties :(

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Hi there.  I have been investigating the possibility of using my boat to sell a few of the various crafts that I make.  I can get product insurance, and the Roving Trader Licence has been agreed in principal.  What I can't get is commercial boat insurance.  They dont seem to like the fact that my boat is 50 years old and hasn't had an out of water survey - that would cost so much.  Nobody is getting on the boat, they are just looking and purchasing from the tow path.  This is so frustrating.

 

Has anyone else had this problem, and found a solution?

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Can you just confirm that your boat is currently insured as a private boat?

 

Are you able to get anything more than third party insurance on the boat at the moment?

It would be highly unusual, I think, on a 5 year old boat that has never had an out of water survey to be able to comprehensively insure the boat and contents.

 

Mind you whether your boat sinks is hardly relevant to whether your potential customers are at risk on the tow-path, so maybe this doesn't have to be a deciding factor?

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56 minutes ago, Goosey Gander said:

Hi there.  I have been investigating the possibility of using my boat to sell a few of the various crafts that I make.  I can get product insurance, and the Roving Trader Licence has been agreed in principal.  What I can't get is commercial boat insurance.  They dont seem to like the fact that my boat is 50 years old and hasn't had an out of water survey - that would cost so much.  Nobody is getting on the boat, they are just looking and purchasing from the tow path.  This is so frustrating.

 

Has anyone else had this problem, and found a solution?

 

My boat is for private use only, but it's not uncommon for insurance companies to ask for a full survey and a valuation. They did this to me last year, which I complied with. You may only get third party without it being done. I would suggest having a survey.

 

 

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Hi. Thank you for your reply. Yes, I have 3rd party insurance as a private boat. I can easily get product insurance.  I simply cant get cover for the process of someone purchasing an item whilst stood on the tow path. ??‍♀️ The Canal and Rivers Trust are fine with 3rd party, but it must have commercial public liability.  The main risk I can see is someone tripping over a mooring rope.

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1 minute ago, Goosey Gander said:

Hi. Thank you for your reply. Yes, I have 3rd party insurance as a private boat. I can easily get product insurance.  I simply cant get cover for the process of someone purchasing an item whilst stood on the tow path. ??‍♀️ The Canal and Rivers Trust are fine with 3rd party, but it must have commercial public liability.  The main risk I can see is someone tripping over a mooring rope.

 

Given the information you have, I can't see a way to avoid the survey, if you wish to continue with your future plans. 

 

 

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I'm not really sure of the practicalities, but if you are not selling perishable items, why do you have to be an official business to sell the odd item. Car boot sales seem to function fairly freely. Who's to worry if the odd passer by, seeing something you've made, wishes to enquire and maybe encourages you to part with it for a financial inducement. ??

 

 

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2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Can you just confirm that your boat is currently insured as a private boat?

 

Are you able to get anything more than third party insurance on the boat at the moment?

It would be highly unusual, I think, on a 5 year old boat that has never had an out of water survey to be able to comprehensively insure the boat and contents.

 

Mind you whether your boat sinks is hardly relevant to whether your potential customers are at risk on the tow-path, so maybe this doesn't have to be a deciding factor?

Since when has a 5 year old boat required a survey ?    ?

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3 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

Since when has a 5 year old boat required a survey ?    ?

 

I think Alan omitted a 0.

Presumably your commercial insurance policy will include comprehensive insurance for the boat and contents (including your stock, business tools/equipment etc.). So not surprising that the insurers apply the normal requirements. Pretty much any insurer will want an out of water survey for a boat over 25-30 years.

 

I assume you dock the boat periodically for reblacking, checking/renewing anodes etc. Get the survey done at the same time to avoid additional docking charges, and also to determine if any work is required to the hull - that would not be unusual on a 50 year old boat. And have either the boatyard where you are docking or a mobile welder lined up so that any repairs can be done while the boat is out of the water.

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If you are a small scale trader, not selling food or any high risk activity, and not having customers on your boat, then most traders just have a standard private insurance policy. You then need third part cover for the trading. A few insurers will add this as an endorsement to your current policy, sometimes at no cost. If your insurer won't do this then a separate market trader type policy costs about £60. Note these are for third party liability not product liability, if you feel that you need product liability then that will likely cost more. I think most traders don't have product liability.

 

Its all a bit of an insurance overkill game really. If you attend an event (floating market etc) then you have third party insurance for your boat, you also have third party cover for trading, CRT have third part cover, and the event itself will have third party cover. Lots of money for insurance men.

 

............Dave

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41 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

Since when has a 5 year old boat required a survey ?    ?

Yes, as David says, I have obviousy missed the zero that was implied in the initial post.

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10 minutes ago, dmr said:

I think most traders don't have product liability.

In this litigious day and age I would have thought this was very short sighted.

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18 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Yes, as David says, I have obviousy missed the zero that was implied in the initial post.

Yes I realised that, just teasing.

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1 hour ago, Jerra said:

In this litigious day and age I would have thought this was very short sighted.

Surely that must depend on what is being sold?  There is a big difference between food / electrical items / tools etc (that might conceivably be a risk to life) at one extreme, and purely decorative items like crochet / paintings etc at the other.

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8 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Surely that must depend on what is being sold?  There is a big difference between food / electrical items / tools etc (that might conceivably be a risk to life) at one extreme, and purely decorative items like crochet / paintings etc at the other.

I have (in the days we did craft fairs) known customers coming back complaining about rashes from materials used allergies to finishes on decorative woodwork etc.

 

However you takes your choice and pays your money or not as the case may be.

 

EDIT:to add seemingly innocuous things like necklaces often breach the regulations on nickel content, because the parts used by the crafter were bought online and not made to UK.

Edited by Jerra

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4 hours ago, Goosey Gander said:

what I will be doing is not going to make a profit.

Why, then, is it a business? It's a hobby.

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Canal and Rivers Trust rules are that you must have a Roving Traders Licence in order to sell anything. To have this licence, you must have third party business public liability for any accidents involving the boat, even though nobody is getting on it. And, you also have to have product insurance.  I think if you are caught without one you can be fined, or lose your licence. My basic third party insurance doesn’t cover any commercial activity and no insurers will cover me with a 50yr old boat - even though no person will Be boarding the boat.  If somebody tripped over a mooring rope whilst purchasing a painting, I wouldn’t be insured if they sued me. I have emailed a few more insurers and will try Simply Business. I feel like Im at a bit of a dead end to be honest ☹️ I just wanted to feel a but more purposeful in what I fo on the boat and get some of my crafts out there. Its the closest I can get at the moment to owning a craft shop.

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Well there seem to be some suggestions worth following up.
However if you do have a 50 year old boat with no survey in recent times, as has been suggested, it may well be worth getting one done as part of a routine docking for blacking.  They do eventually need major repairs, and it's no bad thing to know if you are heading in that direction, so you can start to plan for work that may be necessary in the years ahead.
Obviously it will cost you, though.

  • Greenie 1

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1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

Why, then, is it a business? It's a hobby.

There is no requirement for a business to make a profit.

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2 hours ago, Goosey Gander said:

Canal and Rivers Trust rules are that you must have a Roving Traders Licence in order to sell anything. To have this licence, you must have third party business public liability for any accidents involving the boat, even though nobody is getting on it. And, you also have to have product insurance.  I think if you are caught without one you can be fined, or lose your licence. My basic third party insurance doesn’t cover any commercial activity and no insurers will cover me with a 50yr old boat - even though no person will Be boarding the boat.  If somebody tripped over a mooring rope whilst purchasing a painting, I wouldn’t be insured if they sued me. I have emailed a few more insurers and will try Simply Business. I feel like Im at a bit of a dead end to be honest ☹️ I just wanted to feel a but more purposeful in what I fo on the boat and get some of my crafts out there. Its the closest I can get at the moment to owning a craft shop.

Have a word with the Roving Canal Traders https://www.rcta.org.uk/ . They can probably give you some advice. As I undestand it, trader insurance for markets/ craft fair along with product insurance covers the business side, your normal boat insurance can cover 3rd party liability for the boat if you let them know you are on a roving trader licence where nobody steps aboard. This may well be wrong but I looked into it a few years ago and would like to get back to a boat where it would be possible to advertise some work. Until then, stick your work all over your boat and let people ask you where they can buy them from.

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2 hours ago, Goosey Gander said:

Canal and Rivers Trust rules are that you must have a Roving Traders Licence in order to sell anything. To have this licence, you must have third party business public liability for any accidents involving the boat, even though nobody is getting on it. And, you also have to have product insurance.  I think if you are caught without one you can be fined, or lose your licence. My basic third party insurance doesn’t cover any commercial activity and no insurers will cover me with a 50yr old boat - even though no person will Be boarding the boat.  If somebody tripped over a mooring rope whilst purchasing a painting, I wouldn’t be insured if they sued me. I have emailed a few more insurers and will try Simply Business. I feel like Im at a bit of a dead end to be honest ☹️ I just wanted to feel a but more purposeful in what I fo on the boat and get some of my crafts out there. Its the closest I can get at the moment to owning a craft shop.

As far as I am aware CRT make no requirement for product liability insurance, only for third party, can you post a link???? (we have been roving traders for ten years now so I have an interest in this)

The third party insurance covers people falling over ropes etc, this would also be the case if you were not trading, but it appears that if you are trading you need additional third party insurance for this.

 

When we had a trading endorsement (free of charge) on our standard insurance it said "does not include product liability". We now have a separate market traders policy, I will see if I can dig it out and check the wording.

 

.................Dave

 

 

Edited by dmr

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Right, good news, a market traders policy should cost about £60 and gives £5,000,000 of public liability, AND £5,000,000 of product liability.

 

In general do note that you can never insure away Your basic responsibilities....if you recklessly/negligently (unreasonably) make and sell something that is dangerous don't assume the insurances will save you.

 

...............Dave

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