Leisure batterys/inverter

[Deano1988]

I have 4 leisure batterys (as in pics)

 

I have bought a canal boat, the batterys had been replaced  as part of the deal I  buying it. 

 

I have installed a fridge and going to install an inverter then usual lights/pumps etc need to powered 

 

Ideally I would like to start the engine at a max of 4 days to recharge the batterys as I'm going to rent it out on air bnb so would like to do it myself and not the guest.

 

The question I am really asking is will this be enough? if not how many batterys do I need at how many amps (approx)?

 

Also could anybody reccomend a good quality inverter that will power 2 circuits each with 4 double sockets on it. That doesn't cost the earth?

 

Thanks dean

 

 

 

 

 

[Chewbacka]

The batteries are 88Ah each.  You have 4 giving about 350Ah, but you should not go below 50% discharged, which gives you about 175Ah which are useable.  Capacity will significantly reduce as the batteries age.

This is about 2kWh.  Which if you are careful will last a couple of days, but on a holiday boat where people are not used to being careful who knows.  For example the  use of a hair drier or any other high power devices will reduce that to one day or possibly even less.  If you are intending to heat the hot water using an immersion heater the batteries will be flat before the water is even hot.

 

Battery recharging time by running the engine is a few hours if you don’t want to fully charge the batteries, but this will reduce battery life considerably (maybe a life of a few weeks), to fully charge maybe 10 hours.

 

The existing wiring will probably fail the BSS examination.

 

You need a ‘special’ licence from CRT for a rental boat, and CRT do look on Airbnb etc to find boats that don’t comply with their licence conditions, assuming you are on CRT waters.

 

Inverter size is based upon the load you intend to ‘plug in’ and not the number of sockets.  So what do you wish to power??

Edited January 4, 2020 by Chewbacka

[Ex Brummie]

Have a  look at the battery charging primer at the head of this forum. This will explain charging regimes. There are plenty of topics on airbnb boats, which outline other problems, but if you are renting out accommodation, then what do your prospective clients expect? Toasters, electric kettles, hairdryers, microwaves. If so, then you need to fill half the boat with batteries, and have a charging source available 24/7.

I wrote this before seeing Chewbacka's reply, but there is only one hymn sheet.

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Deano1988 said:

I'm going to rent it out on air bnb

You are opening up a minefield here you will require :

 

A commercial licence from the Navigation Authority (C&RT ?)

Commercial insurance for 'hire and reward'

A Commercial boat safety certificate (much harder to achieve than a normal 'private boat' certificate).

A Gas 'Landlords certificate'

An Electrical safety 'Landlords certificate'

 

It could be that if your boat was built as a leisure boat it may not even be able to achieve commercial safety standards.

 

Go about it without the correct paperwork and insurance and if your customer has an accident then you are well and truly 'sunk'.

 

Think very carefully and speak to C&RT (or whoever) before doing anything.

 

[Deano1988]

I have had a little look into this and understand that this is more about the letting people drive it. I am looking at keeping it moored at renting it.

 

I will have a good look into this more before I do it

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

he existing wiring will probably fail the BSS examination.

WILL fail.

 

The battery terminations have not been made correctly, and, (difficult to tell) but look as if they may be a bit on the small size as well.

It is normally recommended that the wiring used should be 'flexible' (loads of strands of copper) but this looks like it is standard '6491X type' domestic 'stranded' conductors.

[frangar]

As I assume you have a permanent mooring for renting it out then look for one with a mains hook up. Makes life a lot easier....if you are dumping it on a towpath  then you might need to look at the legality 

[nicknorman]

22 minutes ago, Deano1988 said:

I have 4 leisure batterys (as in pics)

 

I have bought a canal boat, the batterys had been replaced  as part of the deal I  buying it. 

 

I have installed a fridge and going to install an inverter then usual lights/pumps etc need to powered 

 

Ideally I would like to start the engine at a max of 4 days to recharge the batterys as I'm going to rent it out on air bnb so would like to do it myself and not the guest.

 

The question I am really asking is will this be enough? if not how many batterys do I need at how many amps (approx)?

 

Also could anybody reccomend a good quality inverter that will power 2 circuits each with 4 double sockets on it. That doesn't cost the earth?

 

Thanks dean

 

 

 

 

 

The question is impossible to answer because it is not a matter of how many sockets you want to power, it is what will be plugged into those sockets and for how long. Many people have a 2 or 3kw inverter but that will take 200 - 300 amps out of the batteries if used carelessly (by plugging lots of stuff in, or just one electric fire). That will flatten your batteries in just a few hours.
I think to expect a boat’s batteries to last 4 days even if the guests are very frugal, is impractical unless you battery bank is much bigger, and then it will take maybe 12 hours to recharge (depending on engine alternator size). And leaving lead acid batteries partially discharged for several days, repeatedly, will give them a short life due to sulphation.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Deano1988 said:

I have had a little look into this and understand that this is more about the letting people drive it. I am looking at keeping it moored at renting it.

No it isn't, it is letting 'the public' into a space for which they are paying and which must be safe for them.

 

What form of heating are you proposing to use ?

Coal / Diesel / Gas or electric ?

[The Dreamer]

7 minutes ago, Deano1988 said:

 

I have had a little look into this and understand that this is more about the letting people drive it. I am looking at keeping it moored at renting it.

 

An easy find on the CRT website, and confirms everything that @Alan de Enfield said...

 

The Static Letting Licence has more rigorous requirements to make sure that both the boat is safe and that potential renters are fully briefed before spending a night on board. Boat owners will be required to have: proof of adequate insurance; a Non-Private Boat Safety Scheme Certificate; a detailed handover document including emergency procedures and contact numbers; a Landlord Gas Safety Certificate; and written permission from their mooring provider.

[Deano1988]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No it isn't, it is letting 'the public' into a space for which they are paying and which must be safe for them.

 

What form of heating are you proposing to use ?

Coal / Diesel / Gas or electric ?

Thanks for the help everybody. I will try to answer everybody with this.

 

Heating is log burner and a boiler with central heating 

 

Now that the cable on the batterys has been pointed out I understand that (I will change them) 

 

The mooring is in central manchester and love the spot. Moving it isn't really a option and no mains hook up.

 

The sockets will just be general purpose,  t.v maybe 12v TVs just don't seem to be good enough.  I will tell people they cant use hair dryers, straighteners etc.   Kettle will on hob 

Brand new gas oven has been installed that uses 240 to ignite. 

 

Thanks 

 

 

4 minutes ago, The Dreamer said:

An easy find on the CRT website, and confirms everything that @Alan de Enfield said...

 

The Static Letting Licence has more rigorous requirements to make sure that both the boat is safe and that potential renters are fully briefed before spending a night on board. Boat owners will be required to have: proof of adequate insurance; a Non-Private Boat Safety Scheme Certificate; a detailed handover document including emergency procedures and contact numbers; a Landlord Gas Safety Certificate; and written permission from their mooring provider.

I understand this. I don't want to do this half hearted so I will be looking at doing all this to make it legit.

 

Thanks

[Chewbacka]

8 minutes ago, Deano1988 said:

Thanks for the help everybody. I will try to answer everybody with this.

 

Heating is log burner and a boiler with central heating 

 

Now that the cable on the batterys has been pointed out I understand that (I will change them) 

 

The mooring is in central manchester and love the spot. Moving it isn't really a option and no mains hook up.

 

The sockets will just be general purpose,  t.v maybe 12v TVs just don't seem to be good enough.  I will tell people they cant use hair dryers, straighteners etc.   Kettle will on hob 

Brand new gas oven has been installed that uses 240 to ignite. 

 

Thanks 

 

 

I understand this. I don't want to do this half hearted so I will be looking at doing all this to make it legit.

 

Thanks

Suggest you read this -

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/business-and-trade/boating-business/starting-or-expanding-a-boating-business/static-letting

 

Remember that as a commercial operator you have to arrange commercial waste collection etc.  The mooring owner may not want or allow commercial mooring, if they are prepared to allow it, they probably don’t have planning permission etc.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Chewbacka

[David Mack]

Without mains hookup you will have to spend hours and hours of engine or generator running between each letting. The neighbours will love that and I can see your mooring owner or the navigation authority putting a stop to it pretty quickly.

How about getting 2 sets of batteries and putting one set on charge at home while the other set are in use on the boat, and swapping battery sets between each letting?

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Deano1988 said:

I understand this. I don't want to do this half hearted so I will be looking at doing all this to make it legit.

In which case - great and I hope it is a success for you.

 

It may just be worth measuring how high the hull fittings (things like exhaust, pumps, drains etc) are above the water, the minimum for a commercial certificate is 10". This is often a reason why 'leisure / private' boats are unable to achieve the certificate. They are often below the 10".

There are things you can do to alter your hull fittings but if not careful, by the time you have paid to modify the boat, paid commercial rates for the insurance and boat licence you will need to rent it out 400 days per year to recover the costs.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[frangar]

Depending on where you are in central Manchester you might have to deal with peel holdings rather than CRT. 

I take it it’s a permanent paid for mooring??
 

 

[Deano1988]

I deal with peal holding. The permanent mooring is paid for does this make a difference?

3 minutes ago, frangar said:

Depending on where you are in central Manchester you might have to deal with peel holdings rather than CRT. 

I take it it’s a permanent paid for mooring??
 

 

I deal with peal holding. The permanent mooring is paid for does this make a difference?

 

•  

[Chewbacka]

 

1 minute ago, Deano1988 said:

I deal with peal holding. The permanent mooring is paid for does this make a difference?

A big difference as the water is under their control and not CRT.  So you will need to talk to them.

[dor]

Looking at the type and state of those batteries,  and the horrific wiring that is attached to them, I really wonder what the rest of the boat is like.  I suspect that the cost of the boat and bringing it up to an acceptable (not to mention legal) condition that will be suitable for letting will far exceed the revenue the boat will generate.

Could you give us some more details of the boat itself?  If so, then the help available on this site will be more focused and far more useful to you.

Edited January 4, 2020 by dor

[Bee]

I don't think its possible to store 4 days worth of electricity in batteries.  To make this idea work you might have to think about a generator.

[Deano1988]

Just a bit more info to add.

 

I have 5 solar panels on top.

 

In general how long often should I be expected to stat the engine and how long for to fully charge the batterys?

[Chewbacka]

Just now, Deano1988 said:

Just a bit more info to add.

 

I have 5 solar panels on top.

 

In general how long often should I be expected to stat the engine and how long for to fully charge the batterys?

In winter, solar does nothing.

As I said above, with ‘sensible use’ your batteries will last 2 days before needing a charge.  Using electric power as you would in a flat, maybe less than a day.

Recharge time - if you want good battery life - 8 to 10 hours.  The shorter the recharge time, the shorter the life of the batteries.

[Bee]

2 minutes ago, Deano1988 said:

Just a bit more info to add.

 

I have 5 solar panels on top.

 

In general how long often should I be expected to stat the engine and how long for to fully charge the batterys?

Depends how flat they are and whether its been sunny, I would reckon on 3 - 4 hours a day for a rental boat with a fridge and TV. Might just stretch to every other day. Electricity is v. difficult to store.

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Deano1988 said:

In general how long often should I be expected to stat the engine and how long for to fully charge the batterys?

It really depends on the electrical consumption.

The 'normal' recommendation / suggestion is to run the engine / charge for 4 hours per day and 8 hours per day at weekends.

The problem is you  (we) have no idea how you or your guests will use the electricity. Your customers may go to sleep and leave the TV on they charge up their laptops, play games all night anything is possible.

 

Strange things boat electrics - it could be as daft as they have an electric toothbrush - your inverter may not be suitable for use with electric toothbrushes and you burn it out - they claim £100 for a replacement (toothbrushes do not like many inverters and they do burn out).

 

 

Will your customers know how to look after (and keep it burning) a coal fire (not many 'modern' house dwellers have the experience)

 

How & where will you empty the toilet - what type of toilet do you have ?

 

How often will you need to fill the water tank - will your customers know how long they have to take a 'boat shower' (turn on water, get wet, turn off water, soap up, turn water back on, rinse and turn water off.

Your water tank won't last long if a 'family' is having 'domestic type' showers

[OldGoat]

You mention that 240V is needed for the cooker ignition. You also mention a fridge which at a reasonable guess is a 240v mains unit. If so to actually start the compressor will need an invertor rated at 1000 - 1200W these units tend to have a standby current of around an amp - that's 24 ampere-hours  per day that the unit is switched on.

You'd need more batteries to just run the above's standby requirements - before your guests use anything.

 

Methinks Peel Ports are more difficult to deal with - if they suspect you're doing "what you didn't oughta" than CaRT - less beaurocracy and quicker to act....

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

The solar panels are of no use for 4 or 5 months of the year. (October - Feb)

They will provide a fair bit in the Summer 6 months and a 'bit' for (say) March and September_

 

The day it rains (and we are talking Manchester here) you get no solar power even in July !