Going price for a decent 40-45ft?

[NB DW]

Hi,

 

I've currently a 25ft Aintree Beetle and I'm looking to buy something bigger as a liveaboard.  I'd toyed with the idea earlier in the year and bottled it, hence the Beetle.  Anyhow, it's a new year and I've decided to go for it.

 

I'll be selling the Beetle privately and I've got a figure in mind. 

 

I'm looking for something 40-45ft in length with a good quality fit out - and ideally no dark wood/finish - and a hull from a respected builder but they seem scarce.  The 'sticker price' seems to be around the £40K mark for something under 15 years old...

 

This looks nice but can't quite stretch to it. 

https://newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boats-for-sale/1343

 

I'm keen to hear what the going rate is for such a boat.  Or is it a case of how long is a piece of string and all depends on what the owner accepts?

 

Thanks in advance

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, NB DW said:

I'm keen to hear what the going rate is for such a boat.  Or is it a case of how long is a piece of string and all depends on what the owner accepts?

 

4 years ago I sold a Reeves 1999 45 foot NB. Well maintained and tidy. I sold it for £35,000

The lass who bought it wanted it as a non-moving 'houseboat', she sold it this year in a 'run-down state', it desperately needed blacking the boat had not moved for 4 years and the engine had not even been started. It sold for £35,000,

Well maintained and 'loved' I'd suggest she would have achieved £40,000.

 

You can buy a 'Rolls Royce, a 'Ford', or a 'Skoda' there will be a big difference in price so you need to find out which are the 'quality' brands, and, have layouts (& Toilet) that you want.

[LadyG]

I would not hesitate to offer £40K if you have the cash and you are happy not to survey, or even subject to survey ..... but you need to be clear about T&Cs, also MAKE SURE THE OWNERSHIP IS KOSHER,

[DAMHIK]

[NB DW]

Thank you.

 

I've ruled out anything that's Chinese made.  From what I've read they don't sound what I'm looking for.  Shame, as the interior of EastWest Marine boats look fantastic in my eyes.

 

I've not ruled out the mid-range hulls, like Liverpool, if they've been well looked after.  But preferably, it'd be a Aqualine, Reeves, Piper, Silverwright etc but might struggle within my budget.

 

I'm not wanting something that has polystyrene insulation either but again the age of boat means spray foam might be harder to find.

 

Shame the person you sold to didn't look after theirs.

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

I would not hesitate to offer £40K if you have the cash and you are happy not to survey, or even subject to survey ..... but you need to be clear about T&Cs, also MAKE SURE THE OWNERSHIP IS KOSHER,

[DAMHIK]

 

Thanks.

 

Low-balling will definitely be on the cards to see what sort of bite I get.

 

And the usual Bill of Sale etc would be a definite.  But most stuff seems to go through a broker which reduces any chance of buying anything nicked.

[LadyG]

16 minutes ago, NB DW said:

Thank you.

 

I've ruled out anything that's Chinese made.  From what I've read they don't sound what I'm looking for.  Shame, as the interior of EastWest Marine boats look fantastic in my eyes.

 

I've not ruled out the mid-range hulls, like Liverpool, if they've been well looked after.  But preferably, it'd be a Aqualine, Reeves, Piper, Silverwright etc but might struggle within my budget.

 

I'm not wanting something that has polystyrene insulation either but again the age of boat means spray foam might be harder to find.

 

Shame the person you sold to didn't look after theirs.

 

Thanks.

 

Low-balling will definitely be on the cards to see what sort of bite I get.

 

And the usual Bill of Sale etc would be a definite.  But most stuff seems to go through a broker which reduces any chance of buying anything nicked.

Ask for the Bill of Sale and recent invoices before anything else. Make sure there are no glitches.

 The broker is interested in your money, first and foremost. Where money is involved, assume nothing.

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by LadyG

[WotEver]

50 minutes ago, NB DW said:

This looks nice but can't quite stretch to it. 

https://newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boats-for-sale/1343

They might well accept £40k. You lose nowt by trying. 

[ditchcrawler]

A good haggling point could be the RCD status as its not shown

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, NB DW said:

And the usual Bill of Sale etc would be a definite.  But most stuff seems to go through a broker which reduces any chance of buying anything nicked.

Why do you think that ?

What information do you think a broker has access to that you don't ?

 

I would rather make a private purchase where there is paperwork (licence invoices, the mooring invoice etc etc) all in the sellers name and at his address - confirm he is who he says he is and his address from his driving licence, passport, firearms certificate etc (anything with his photo on) Confirm the bank account your are transferring money into is in his name,

Get his car registration number, get him to take you to his house to sort out the paperwork.

 

There are plenty of ways of showing 'ownership' evidence but a broker has no incentive to pursue them, he has nothing to gain or lose, he 'sells' the boat and takes his commission, the buyer loses out if it is later proven to be stolen, the broker has no responsibility as he was not the seller, purely the go-between for the seller & buyer.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Why do you think that ?

What information do you think a broker has access to that you don't ?

 

I would rather make a private purchase where there is paperwork (licence invoices, the mooring invoice etc etc) all in the sellers name and at his address - confirm he is who he says he is and his address from his driving licence, passport, firearms certificate etc (anything with his photo on) Confirm the bank account your are transferring money into is in his name,

Get his car registration number, get him to take you to his house to sort out the paperwork.

 

There are plenty of ways of showing 'ownership' evidence but a broker has no incentive to pursue them, he has nothing to gain or lose, he 'sells' the boat and takes his commission, the buyer loses out if it is later proven to be stolen, the broker has no responsibility as he was not the seller, purely the go-between for the seller & buyer.

 

Buying private is far safer than a broker in my opinion.

 

I was about to make all these points Alan just made, but he saved me the trouble. 

 

 

A broker actually stands in the way of you carrying out the checks Alan describes, so is more risky.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Slightly disagree with the above. I've bought two boats last year. One through a broker and one through an estate agent. In each case I had in mind specific things that I wanted paperwork for in relation to either the boat and/or ownership and financing (ie that there was none on each boat).

I personally found it far less awkward to ask for things I wanted via the broker than via an estate agent who passed my details/queries direct to the seller. I got everything I asked for in both instances just by being polite but firm. And somewhat 'prepared to walk away'. In fact I got rather more paperwork than I'd have been prepared to accept on each in the end as there were bundles that came with each boat I didn't have time to read all of pre-purchase.

 

I'm now selling one of the above (it was bought for the mooring) and am using a broker. I'm doing so becasue I don't particularly want to deal with a load of 'nuisance' queries and I certainly don't want to be meeting strangers off the internet in a small non-public space with potentially limited exit choices (such as a moving narrowboat in a bloody cold canal). Buyers can ask for whatever paperwork they want and I've already forwarded a bunch of things such as recent surveys to the broker but no way in heck they are coming to my family home. The broker has a reputation to maintain and, in an industry with relatively few players in any given area, a 'scandal' could ruin that. I'm not saying I didn't (or wouldn't) do my own checks but any half way decent brokerage would be more than aware they wouldn't want to be called to give evidence in a court case over an ownership dispute...

[Alan de Enfield]

6 hours ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

Slightly disagree with the above

You, or anyone has the choice to buy 'directly' or thru a broker, if you feel embarrassed or apprehensive dealing with the seller then fine, use a broker.

 

However your points bear no relevance to both my, and MtB's answer to NB DW's statement that dealing via a broker reduces risk

13 hours ago, NB DW said:

But most stuff seems to go through a broker which reduces any chance of buying anything nicked.

 

Brokers have no more investigative powers than you do, there is no "DVLA" for canal boats that 'the authorities' can go to, and the Governments 'Small Ships Register' is rarely used by Canal Boaters. When brokers go bust and take your money, there is a lot less security than 'handing over a carrier bag' of cash and 'taking the keys' when dealing with a private seller.

 

There are a number of instances / examples where brokers either 'do the dirty' on buyers or sellers, or go bust and do a runner with the money. It does not happen every week but there is one probably every 2 or 3  years. For the 10-20 people involved in each one that is too often.

 

Example :

Taking deposits on boats from multiple buyers

Selling boat and not passing money to seller

Taking money for repairs and repairs not carried out

etc etc

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Alan de Enfield
Spooling erurs

[CV32]

13 hours ago, NB DW said:

Thank you.

 

I've ruled out anything that's Chinese made.  From what I've read they don't sound what I'm looking for.  Shame, as the interior of EastWest Marine boats look fantastic in my eyes.

 

 

I owned an East West and it was a great boat with UK sourced equipment. Nothing bad about them and in fact they have held their value and in some cases go for more than they were when new (in spite of what everyone on here said at the time)   

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, CV32 said:

I owned an East West and it was a great boat with UK sourced equipment. Nothing bad about them and in fact they have held their value and in some cases go for more than they were when new (in spite of what everyone on here said at the time)   

The problems have always been with the 'woodwork'.

Manufactured from Bamboo it doesn't seem to work well in the damp UK climate and there have been many reports of cupboards warping, unable to open doors etc etc.

Otherwise, structurally, there seems to have been few problems reported.

[Boater Sam]

Then there is the large brokerage in Northwich that went under, but the same guy still brokering but out of Nantwich. ( Think my facts are correct, the information is sketchy to say the least )

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Then there is the large brokerage in Northwich that went under, but the same guy still brokering but out of Nantwich. ( Think my facts are correct, the information is sketchy to say the least )

I believe he has run two Phoenix companies - all boat brokerages, after the 1st went 'bad'.

Reports on here somewhere.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

However your points bear no relevance to both my, and MtB's answer to NB DW's statement that dealing via a broker reduces risk

It was waffly but I got around to the relevant point about a broker having a reputation to maintain and dealing in stolen boats being a good way to loose it.

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are a number of instances / examples where brokers either 'do the dirty' on buyers or sellers, or go bust and do a runner with the money. It does not happen every week but there is one probably every 2 or 3  years. For the 10-20 people involved in each one that is too often.

 

 

 

Credit risk is an issue - I took steps to satisfy myself on that too. 

[Athy]

19 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Then there is the large brokerage in Northwich that went under, but the same guy still brokering but out of Nantwich. ( Think my facts are correct, the information is sketchy to say the least )

That was a pity, yes. His name is Stephen Harral. I had bought a boat from him shortly before that, and the service I got was excellent. I'm pleased to hear that he managed to relaunch his business.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

It was waffly but I got around to the relevant point about a broker having a reputation to maintain and dealing in stolen boats being a good way to loose it.

I really don't believe that there are that many boats stolen on the 'cut', and remember that :

1) If the broker doesn't ask for proof of ownership then he doesn't know it was stolen.

2) A broker is not legally required to disclose any facts / information about the boat unless he is asked the specific question, and even then 'the weasel words' "not that I am aware of" are sufficient to absolve them of any responsibility.

 

Broker’s ‘Legal Liability To Disclose Information’
In the RYA’s view, there is no general legal obligation on either Seller or broker to disclose the existence of defects to a prospective Buyer, unless, of course, they are asked a specific question, which is why a survey is essential.

A standard disclaimer will be included in the brokers Agreement with the Seller, the purpose of which is to protect a broker against complaints by a Buyer that the broker’s published particulars of a boat are wrong, in circumstances where the broker has relied on the Seller’s information when writing those particulars.

 

You can always access the Stolen Boats website :

http://www.stolenboats.org.uk/Welcome.aspx

 

A good broker is representing his seller and will do everything he can to sell the boat, but will do what he can to satisfy the buyer, but not at the expense of the seller, remember who is paying the brokers wages.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I really don't believe that there are that many boats stolen on the 'cut'

 

 

In the hotwiring bandits sense - agree. But I did buy one which cd have been subject to ownership dispute (relationship breakdown - formerly jointly owned). 

[matty40s]

14 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

A good haggling point could be the RCD status as its not shown

Not really relevant as the boat is well past its 5 years old mark and has been through more than one owner. There may or may not be a file, but it has no "putting the brakes on" effect with the sale.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Not really relevant as the boat is well past its 5 years old mark and has been through more than one owner. There may or may not be a file, but it has no "putting the brakes on" effect with the sale.

It certainly doesn't matter with regard to UK canal boats, but it is still required in the 'Ships papers' on 'the coast' and certainly in Europe.

[MtB]

23 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Not really relevant as the boat is well past its 5 years old mark and has been through more than one owner. There may or may not be a file, but it has no "putting the brakes on" effect with the sale.

 

Even so, a boat young enough to have needed one but without one, is clearly slightly less saleable than a boat WITH all the RCD paperwork done and in place - from a 'haggling over the price' point of view. 

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Even so, a boat young enough to have needed one but without one, is clearly slightly less saleable than a boat WITH all the RCD paperwork done and in place - from a 'haggling over the price' point of view. 

 

 

Agree. My newer one would have needed one and seems to have acquired it (at some expense) during a previous change of ownership rather than when initially built. So, either the former owner will have had to pay for that or price will have reflected that future owner would I imagine. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by TheMenagerieAfloat
Edited to add: I think even at that point it wd have been older than 5yrs

[NB DW]

Thanks for the replies and sorry for the delayed reply.

 

There's pros and cons to private sales and brokerages, I know.  But didn't really want to get into all that at this stage.

 

As a potential soon to be seller I'm looking at using a broker to sell my boat.  Accomodating mid-week viewings are a non-starter for me so likely to lose a number of would-be buyers.  The brokerage fee works out at £1.9K with the selling price I had in mind.

 

Even with the sale of my boat plus what I've got in savings I'll still only have high 30's to spend which isn't quite enough.  I'd be looking to be offering very low 40's on a 45K boat.

 

I won't have the shortfall until maybe May time.

 

The problem is if I put my boat up for sale around May then it might take months to sell and I'll end up potentially missing out on something I want.  It's a bit of a roll of the dice.

 

Edited to add..

 

The broker I visited today very recently sold:

 

https://swanleybrokerage.co.uk/boats/elander-rose-cruiser-stern/

 

I mentioned the concern over hulls with it being Chinese steel.  The feedback was some have had great surveys and others not, and that's applicable to any builder I spose depending on how well it's been looked after.  The original plating is actually better than most standard hull builds, base plate at 12mm etc..

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by NB DW

[Boater Sam]

13 hours ago, NB DW said:

Thanks for the replies and sorry for the delayed reply.

 

There's pros and cons to private sales and brokerages, I know.  But didn't really want to get into all that at this stage.

 

As a potential soon to be seller I'm looking at using a broker to sell my boat.  Accomodating mid-week viewings are a non-starter for me so likely to lose a number of would-be buyers.  The brokerage fee works out at £1.9K with the selling price I had in mind.

 

Even with the sale of my boat plus what I've got in savings I'll still only have high 30's to spend which isn't quite enough.  I'd be looking to be offering very low 40's on a 45K boat.

 

I won't have the shortfall until maybe May time.

 

The problem is if I put my boat up for sale around May then it might take months to sell and I'll end up potentially missing out on something I want.  It's a bit of a roll of the dice.

 

Edited to add..

 

The broker I visited today very recently sold:

 

https://swanleybrokerage.co.uk/boats/elander-rose-cruiser-stern/

 

I mentioned the concern over hulls with it being Chinese steel.  The feedback was some have had great surveys and others not, and that's applicable to any builder I spose depending on how well it's been looked after.  The original plating is actually better than most standard hull builds, base plate at 12mm etc..

 

There is no sound reason to suspect that the steel is any different than any bought on any steel market in the world. Chinese, Korean, and Japanese cars don't seem to rust or rot any worse than VW, Peugeot/Citroen, Fiat etc.

 

But I couldn't life with the shape of that cabin or those door handles!