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SailorJerold

Sub £10k Narrowboats

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I know every post I am making has a hint of negativity, but I'd rather you know both sides - you can find all the 'its a wonderful life' videos on YouTube.

 

With a small boat (30 foot) if it needs overplating it needs to be very carefully done as the overplating can add a large weight (proportionally) to the boat making it sit much lower in the water. There was an example a year or two ago where one had been overplated and it was itting so low in the water that the engine room vents were only just above the water level. It was thought that he dog walked to the back of the boat and it was enough to start the boat sinking - it sank in seconds.

 

This was on the Thames.

 

I will see if I can find the news reports.

I would say your posts are factual than negative... because they have numbers and data behind the reasoning.

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1 minute ago, SailorJerold said:

Liverpool boat builders do a 45 ft sailaway for £19.5k

I thought Liverpool boats ceased trading and became aintree boats and collingwood .......

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1 minute ago, David Mack said:

 

Liverpool ceased trading years ago!

 

Just now, Loddon said:

I thought Liverpool boats ceased trading and became aintree boats and collingwood .......

Im probably looking at several years ago prices then. My mistake. Like I said I saw a video of them and looked them up. 

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1 minute ago, David Mack said:

Collingwood shell from £16,200, sailaway from £31,130.

 

Same thing though depending on specs of their shell. Why is it double for an engine? Is there money to be saved buying a shell + second hand engine and getting it fitted elsewhere (for future reference)

25 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Nice.

 

But I think the link you posted is for water safety lessons! I almost bid on it earlier! 

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I know every post I am making has a hint of negativity, but I'd rather you know both sides - you can find all the 'its a wonderful life' videos on YouTube.

 

With a small boat (30 foot) if it needs overplating it needs to be very carefully done as the overplating can add a large weight (proportionally) to the boat making it sit much lower in the water. There was an example a year or two ago where one had been overplated and it was itting so low in the water that the engine room vents were only just above the water level. - it sank in seconds.

 

This was on the Thames.

 

I will see if I can find the news reports.

Note the last paragraph - surveyors are not infallible.

 

Overplated NB Sinks on the Thames.

 

 

 

Here it is probably apposite to quote the case of the narrow boat MINI MOO ex MARY MINT. The following is quoted verbatim from a Safety Bulletin issued by the Port of London Authority: –
On the 24th August 2012, a narrow boat was delivered by road to South Dock Marina in London for a new owner. The vessel was lifted into the dock and the new owner requested to lock out of the marina as they had an overnight berth in Lime House Marina; a short distance up the River Thames. The vessel departed the lock at 17:00 with 5 adults and 1 dog aboard. As they departed the lock the lock keeper commented to them that they should have lifejackets on board as they appeared to be missing. The crew decided to continue on and left the lock with 3 adults in the aft cockpit and 2 adults in the cabin. The vessel transited directly across the river to the starboard side of the channel and then turned upriver towards Lime House Marina. Shortly into their transit the crew noted a change in the engine note and opened the engine room hatch to find the engine half submerged. All persons quickly moved to the stern to try and bail out the engine room, but were unable to cope with the ingress of water into the vessel. The engine room continued to fill with water and flooded into the main cabin, submerging the aft coaming below the water, resulting in severe flooding of the vessel which sank within 10 seconds. All of the crew and the dog entered the water without lifejackets, but were rescued by a nearby RIB and Police Launch.

 

Marine surveyors and others concerned with narrowboats should obtain a copy of the Bulletin from the PLA and take note of its recommendations.

 

It was noted by the PLA that the vessel had been the subject of extensive overplating. Whoever had recommended the overplating had also recommended partly blocking off the engine room air jalousie on the port side as its bottom edge was considered even then to be too near the waterline. The following Figure 1 below shows the effect of the overplating and the number of persons seated aft.

 

The buyer of the MINI MOO bought the boat on the strength of a survey report provided by the seller. The marine surveyor concerned had estimated the height of the engine air intake jalousie from water level marks on the hull although the vessel had been out of the water for a considerable time prior to his survey. He had estimated the intake to be 200 mm above the waterline but when it measured after the salvage it was only 65 mm. The marine surveyor had covered himself with the caveat that it was an estimate only. In that particular case, when the vessel sank, no life jackets were on board and at least one person on board could not swim. The survivors were very lucky that nearby boats managed to pluck them from the water immediately. The fact that a marine surveyor’s report perhaps covers him with words such as estimated does not provide much comfort if bodies have to be pulled from the water.

 

Thats a scary read. Point taken. Glad everyone made it in that case.

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9 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Collingwood shell from £16,200, sailaway from £31,130.

Quite so., and to carry on...

 

Lined sailaway £41,480, Fully Fitted £73,000...

 

And I think that very much puts into perspective what you are likely to end up with if you spend under £10K on a complete boat.

Edited by alan_fincher
Corrected a price.
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Have to say if OP is a self employed cabbie (as opposed to one with fixed hours for a minicab firm or whatever - I'm in London where I know the licensing had historically been different...) then (s)he has more hope. 

 

To give you an idea... I paid a few multiples of OP's budget for a boat (surveyed by a colleague of the guy who wrote the 'postmortem' of ThingyMoo above) and have just had the water pump go. This means there is no running water on the boat.

 

Time, rather than funds, can also be a killer. I have instructions on what to do and called the pump manufacturer for loads of advice too. But I also have a (very) FT job, child, stalker, pets etc which mean I can only actually address the issue that I have no running water whatsoever on my boat in a few day's time. In the interim we're safely ensconced in a land home.

 

And, because I pay a stupid amount for a glorious mooring, if we weren't then there are perfectly nice bathrooms a few feet away and a tap at the end of my boat.

 

If working the way I do and/or with time bound commitments then being on a (presumably) facility-free mooring without the ability to pop to a chandlery immediately could be really horrible.

 

Even on a f-off expensive boat. The (market leading) pump manufacturer didn't reckon I'd want to rely on getting more than a year out of a water pump (living aboard in a hard water area, which I appreciate the OP may not be... But still, that is just one potential maintenance issue... ).

 

OP will you have an emergency bolt hole (parents?) to go stay with/poop in the loo of/get warm or fed at? There will almost certainly be points when your boat is not (by land based standards) habitable and there will be no landlord with responsibility to assist. 

 

Good luck! 

Edited by TheMenagerieAfloat
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PS facilities are a real issue... Does the mooring have water/elsan/pump out/showers/council tax commitment/communal WiFi thingy/etc? If not then you need to be prepared to drive to (and pay for) all/most of the above in your income source (car/cab) at periods when your boat is not functional or you don't have the time to cruise to them.

 

I decided against a mooring with slightly better garden than I have because it was less secure and, crucially, getting to/from a pump out point could be a half day round trip (when taking into account needing to go as far as a winding hole - and we're talking about a relatively faciltity-dense area here!). 

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3 hours ago, SailorJerold said:

I'm sorry but the first reply was less a note of caution and more of a 'get lost' with a heavy hint of sardonic.  

 

The reply to your reply fair enough.

 

I've not said that this is my plan. I've not said this is what I'm doing. I've said I'm always tempted when I see the boats come up on Ebay. These boats get sold, so some people clearly buy them and I was hoping to hear from them people. 

 

So far the replies I've had suggest that the boats are write offs or that it would cost more to repair than buying a boat 4 times its price. I am interested to know what the cost and effort implications are of such a boat.

my first reply was:  

there will always be exceptions but, for the unwary, it is likely that any really cheap steel boat will end up as a money pit.

10K might buy a GRP cruiser in half-decent condition, but a steel hulled vessel is another kettle of fish.

 

if you are such a sensitive soul that you considered that meant 'get lost' then I think you have seriously lost the plot.    

you certainly don't seem to want to listen to advice, even though by your own admission 'I'm new to narrowboating,'

Edited by Murflynn

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2 minutes ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

PS facilities are a real issue... Does the mooring have water/elsan/pump out/showers/council tax commitment/communal WiFi thingy/etc? If not then you need to be prepared to drive to (and pay for) all/most of the above in your income source (car/cab) at periods when your boat is not functional or you don't have the time to cruise to them.

 

I decided against a mooring with slightly better garden than I have because it was less secure and, crucially, getting to/from a pump out point could be a half day round trip (when taking into account needing to go as far as a winding hole - and we're talking about a relatively faciltity-dense area here!). 

There are CRT facilities within 5 miles of the mooring and some private ones 2 miles the other way. I do have back up couches; parents, brothers etc. To be honest I was thinking of doing most of my showering in the gym anyway. I must pass it 15 times a day! I've been to the site and my 4G phone internet has decent signal, so would be tethering for my internet usage. Rubbish I could take to the tip a couple of times a week on the way into my town. 

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3 hours ago, Murflynn said:

you asked a question.  if you don't like the answers you are on the wrong forum.

I read that as "Don't immediately accept my wisdom then p*ss off."

 

3 hours ago, Murflynn said:

perhaps you should try a forum dealing in fairy-tales that always end with living happily ever after.

And this I read as smug sardonicism. 

 

But written words don't convey the nuances of human communication, just thought it was a pointless post that had nothing to do with the question asked. 

 

No offense taken by it though. I'm not sensitive. I'm not sure it's not you who's just a bit of a moody Trudy. 

 

I do appreciate the replies here. People have given me a lot to think about so far. 

Edited by SailorJerold
to add the last sentence.

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See, 5miles (if no locks and there is a winding (3point turning) point precisely adjacent) is a 2.5hr round trip in a narrowboat. Which is fine if you can take that kind of time during daylight hours / have relaxed neighbours and great cruising lights on a functional boat. Which you might be able to accommodate if it is mostly for emptying cassette loo (couple of times/week?) or filling up with water (monthly?). 

 

The other thing you'll need to consider is how far away/costly it is to get your boat out of the water and address hull issues (which there are likely to be on a <10k boat). Sounds like you have interior DIY skills and, even if you have to moor under a motorway bridge or something for someone to help you with exterior maintenance, that might be fine.

 

Welding though you'll need the boat out for. And probably someone else to do.

 

Edited to add: site doesn't even have rubbish collection? Are you sure it is OK for residential use? My site is also unconventional (e.g. Pump out machine with option to attach shared hose next to any boat so we have some with no engine engine at all) and, as a newbie, ppl questioned if I'd understood correctly, I had. But I did double check! 

Edited by TheMenagerieAfloat
As above

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2 hours ago, SailorJerold said:

 

Same thing though depending on specs of their shell. Why is it double for an engine? Is there money to be saved buying a shell + second hand engine and getting it fitted elsewhere (for future reference)

Of course if you fit a second hand engine and connect it all up yourself it will be cheaper than them fitting a brand new one and doing all the work, connecting the fuel system, exhaust, electrics, lining up etc.

 

 

But I think the link you posted is for water safety lessons! I almost bid on it earlier! 

 Bugger, I should read more carefully sorry

 

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2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

 

To get it fitted elsewhere OP will have to get his/her boat towed or road transported to a location with a crane and/or suitable bridge over canal with road access and engineer prepared to be adventurous with ropes... Which cd, potentially, be cheaper. But possibly not if you take into account how much more money they could be making taking that time to pick up paying fares. 

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1 minute ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

See, 5miles (if no locks and there is a winding (3point turning) point precisely adjacent) is a 2.5hr round trip in a narrowboat. Which is fine if you can take that kind of time during daylight hours / have relaxed neighbours and great cruising lights on a functional boat. Which you might be able to accommodate if it is mostly for emptying cassette loo (couple of times/week?) or filling up with water (monthly?). 

 

The other thing you'll need to consider is how far away/costly it is to get your boat out of the water and address hull issues (which there are likely to be on a <10k boat). Sounds like you have interior DIY skills and, even if you have to moor under a motorway bridge or something for someone to help you with exterior maintenance, that might be fine.

 

Welding though you'll need the boat out for. And probably someone else to do.

Definitely need to work out the costs, I think I'm quite lucky in terms of the amount of boatyards/marinas within a days trip from my location. I'm going to have a drive round the local boatyards/marinas and ask the questions. Really should be keeping a journal with all the associated costs of key repairs to plan long term but as mentioned on page 1 there seems to be an endless list of things that could go wrong! But knowing how much it will cost to get the boat out of the water would be a good start. Thanks, 

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17 minutes ago, SailorJerold said:

I read that as "Don't immediately accept my wisdom then p*ss off."

 

And this I read as smug sardonicism. 

 

But written words don't convey the nuances of human communication, just thought it was a pointless post that had nothing to do with the question asked. 

 

No offense taken by it though. I'm not sensitive. I'm not sure it's not you who's just a bit of a moody Trudy. 

 

I do appreciate the replies here. People have given me a lot to think about so far. 

that refers to my second reply, not my first reply, neither of which I regret in the least.

 

no I'm not a moody trudy (wotevever that is) but a hardened sceptical and wizened old geezer who has done a lot, and made many mistakes, including building steel shells as a business venture for 3 years, and buying a sailaway from the well-defunct Liverpool Boat Co.   I am always ready to try to give sound advice to those who want to listen.

 

nuff said.  good luck.  

Edited by Murflynn
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9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

 

I did the exact same thing before you mentioned it. It's weird they would sell that in an auction format!

 

I'm thinking buy the engine and get someone else to fit it. But like Menagerie says there is paying the guy to travel, the uplift expenses etc etc. I'm fairly handy with fitting car parts. Changed a fair few alternators and serpentine belts in my time but an engine is a whole different kettle of fish, especially on a boat I wouldn't have a clue. Not easy to cheap out the build process it seems. 

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I dont think that enough attention is paid to the condition of the bottom plate. I have had a 45ft narrow boat which looked very tidy. Within a short time of buying it, a rust hole in the base plate caused some panic welding on my part. Sold my last boat(which if I say so myself) looked very presentable,but had a very thin bottom plate. No corrosion at all on the sides.Yes,it could have been plated,but this is not the same as a sound,thicker,plate on a newer boat. Many earlier boats had a bottom plate off 6mm or less. Many of these boats are as old as I am(which is quite old) Many of these boats will NEVER have had any treatment to the bottom plate. The most important thing for any boat is that it keeps on floating. Beware rusty,cheap old boats.

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1 hour ago, SailorJerold said:

But knowing how much it will cost to get the boat out of the water would be a good start. Thanks, 

Probably around £200. to lift out.

If the job is going to take more than a 'couple of hours' the yard may need to use the hoist for something else, there will then be a 'chocking up' charge and then a lift 'back in' charge of another £200.

If the job is a straight 'lift out' screw on new XXX and drop back in the water they may only charge a straight 1-off charge.

 

59 minutes ago, SailorJerold said:

I'm thinking buy the engine and get someone else to fit it.

A good idea but either very 'limiting' or very 'costly'.

 

Limiting - you need to find the exact engine model that was either fitted previously or for which the 'new' hull has been designed

Costly - having to adapt the engine bearers to suit the engine that you have found. Is the gearbox suitable ? is the rotation of the engine / gearbox compatible with the direction of rotation of the prop ? (a new prop could be £300-£500)

 

You need to get access to the boat such that you can manhandle 250kg of engine (eg LPWS4) from a trolley onto the boat and lower it down into the engine hole - lowering it down by ropes suspended under a road bridge is not the most convenient.

 

 

12 minutes ago, nebulae said:

Many earlier boats had a bottom plate off 6mm or less. Many of these boats are as old as I am(which is quite old) Many of these boats will NEVER have had any treatment to the bottom plate. The most important thing for any boat is that it keeps on floating. Beware rusty,cheap old boats.

The 'small' Springer boats were built with 3.75mm thick 'bottoms'. many are still in use today, many (most) have been replated). The insurance industry today will not comprehensively insure a boat with a bottom 4mm or less.

At £10k Springers will no doubt feature regularly in the OP's 'list of potentials'.

 

'Springers' have an interesting history :

 

 

Sam Springer spotted the growing market for purpose-built live-aboard boats in the late 1960s when he was working as a steel fabricator making water tanks in Market Harborough, close to the Grand Union and River Welland. He decided to move into boat-building later claiming “I used to build water tanks, building boats is the same thing but in reverse”. Although his boats were well constructed, Springer had a reputation for using whatever steel was available, meaning that his hulls weren’t always as thick as they could have been. His approach can be summarised by the popular yarn that early in his career, Springer acquired some scrap steel that had once formed an old gasometer and drove back and forwards over it with a truck to remove the bend so it was flat enough to use. Because of such shortcuts, his boats were recognised as providing great value for money and his yard was soon knocking out 400 a year, accounting for almost 50 per cent of the market and at a much lower price than any competition.

 

http://canalrivertrustwaterfront.org.uk/heritage/a-thrifty-beginning/

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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That'll be expecting a premium for the mooring (which OP won't use and can't afford to stick another boat on to sell) so is probably a <9k boat without automatic loss :-(

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9 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

On K&A Facebook group

Capture.JPG

 

Good find, but a 9hp outboard is not really ideal for a liveaboard on a bank-side mooring with no electricity.

 

SailorJerold : an outboard engine only has a very small alternator (maybe 3 or 5 amps) which is designed to recharge a 'starter battery', it is insufficient to charge a domestic battery bank which you will be relying on for your fridge, water pumps, lights, TV, phone & computer charging etc.

An inboard diesel engine will have something like a 70amp alternator quite capable of keeping your domestics charged.

 

Solar (even 500w) will provide almost no power for 4 months of the year - these same months being the darkest, coldest ones of the year when you use most power. 

500w of solar will (should) be sufficient to keep your batteries charged for 6 months of the year, and will 'contribute' for another 2 months.

 

Other things to consider is the additional 'safety rules' that have to be met to store petrol on board, and the fact that your inboard engine will provide hot water for heating, washing, shower etc.

 

You will find a few outboard powered boats but you can gauge their popularity by the fact they are (probably) £5000 cheaper than the same model with an inboard engine.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Probably around £200. to lift out.

If the job is going to take more than a 'couple of hours' the yard may need to use the hoist for something else, there will then be a 'chocking up' charge and then a lift 'back in' charge of another £200.

If the job is a straight 'lift out' screw on new XXX and drop back in the water they may only charge a straight 1-off charge.

 

A good idea but either very 'limiting' or very 'costly'.

 

Limiting - you need to find the exact engine model that was either fitted previously or for which the 'new' hull has been designed

Costly - having to adapt the engine bearers to suit the engine that you have found. Is the gearbox suitable ? is the rotation of the engine / gearbox compatible with the direction of rotation of the prop ? (a new prop could be £300-£500)

 

You need to get access to the boat such that you can manhandle 250kg of engine (eg LPWS4) from a trolley onto the boat and lower it down into the engine hole - lowering it down by ropes suspended under a road bridge is not the most convenient.

 

 

The 'small' Springer boats were built with 3.75mm thick 'bottoms'. many are still in use today, many (most) have been replated). The insurance industry today will not comprehensively insure a boat with a bottom 4mm or less.

At £10k Springers will no doubt feature regularly in the OP's 'list of potentials'.

 

'Springers' have an interesting history :

 

 

Sam Springer spotted the growing market for purpose-built live-aboard boats in the late 1960s when he was working as a steel fabricator making water tanks in Market Harborough, close to the Grand Union and River Welland. He decided to move into boat-building later claiming “I used to build water tanks, building boats is the same thing but in reverse”. Although his boats were well constructed, Springer had a reputation for using whatever steel was available, meaning that his hulls weren’t always as thick as they could have been. His approach can be summarised by the popular yarn that early in his career, Springer acquired some scrap steel that had once formed an old gasometer and drove back and forwards over it with a truck to remove the bend so it was flat enough to use. Because of such shortcuts, his boats were recognised as providing great value for money and his yard was soon knocking out 400 a year, accounting for almost 50 per cent of the market and at a much lower price than any competition.

 

http://canalrivertrustwaterfront.org.uk/heritage/a-thrifty-beginning/

Haha I love that story. Sam Springer sounds like my kind of guy. 

13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

On K&A Facebook group

Capture.JPG

Thanks for this. Good example of what kind of boat you can expect for the price probably. 

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I don't know whether to just save up for my own shell, and fit an outboard or tow it my mooring. Start working on the internal fitout etc. The boat builders are all local(ish). I could get a diesel generator in there for my power needs initially and camp in it until I can afford to get an engine fitted.   

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