Killed my water pump :-|

[Guest]

So, I ran the water pump (model: UF1214 Whale Universal) without any water in the tank accidentally. For probably 4hours or so. (Switches not labelled and pump at opposite end of a 70ft boat so didn't hear it when cruising). 

 

Nonetheless it worked fine (sinks/loo all working and water pump working obviously when those taps running plus possibly intermittently for a few seconds at other times (calorifier probably on, cd be for that?!?)) for a week or so after. 

 

Now dead. No pumping at all and so no water from taps etc.

 

Had a peak at it and there is a tiny amount of water around it (photograph shows damp patch on wood and little glint of drip on red wire). 

 

It is (coincidentally?) pretty close to the back of the light switch which stopped working but I *think* the pump worked after that stopped although can't be sure as I guess cd have been accumulated pressure as was mostly just using sink in galley at far end for wiping cloth rinsing so not huge amounts of water use. 

 

So... What if anything can I try/test before giving up and calling an electrician? 

 

As the water pump is located pretty close to the (I think, water activated? was demoed by popping into a bucket of water) bilge pump I assume it is slightly tolerant to damp but the electrics don't look that way?

 

Clues appreciated! 

 

Dead pump

 

Pressure tank thingy

 

Blurry picture of adjacent bilge pump (small first mate was getting hungry)

Edited January 2, 2020 by TheMenagerieAfloat
To add pictures

[Jen-in-Wellies]

According to Whale, that model will run dry without damage. Is there any sound coming from it? Do you have a multimeter? If so, look for 12V between the red and black wire at the chocolate block connector in the first pic. If it is 12V and the pump isn't running. then the pump may be deceased, or a bit poorly. If the voltage is low, then there could be a dodgy connection somewhere between the pump and the battery that is reducing the current flow to such an extent that the pump can't get enough electrons to work. Connections, fuse, isolator switch?

 

Jen

Edited January 2, 2020 by Jen-in-Wellies

[MtB]

18 minutes ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

Clues appreciated! 

 

Do you have a digital multimeter to hand?

 

If you don't, then get one. They are the second most useful thing any liveaboard can own.

 

If you have, check for 12v across the two wires feeding the pump. 

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Do you have a digital multimeter to hand?

 

If you don't, then get one. They are the second most useful thing any liveaboard can own.

 

If you have, check for 12v across the two wires feeding the pump. 

 

 

Come on then MtB. What is the most useful?

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

According to Whale, that model will run dry without damage.

Thank goodness not me then!

 

6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Is there any sound coming from it?

None - and it was quite audible before.

 

6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Do you have a multimeter? How are the wires in to the pump connected to the rest of the boats wiring? Chocolate block? Crimps? On the wires going in to the pump, look for 12V between the red and black one. If it is 12V and the pump isn't running. then the pump may be deceased, or a bit poorly. If the voltage is low, then there could be a dodgy connection somewhere between the pump and the battery that is reducing the current flow to such an extent that the pump can't get enough electrons to work. Connections, fuse, isolator switch?

Can borrow (mine is still packed away somewhere in storage) but wasn't sure what to check - photos now added although wasn't sure what to snap.

 

There is a big 'whole boat' type electrics switch which has been on throughout it being fine and then not fine. I have 5 panels of 6 individual stuff switches (all labelled incorrectly and with a handy biro map showing 6 such panels - possibly there is another location for a panel I've not yet found as I have one set of 3 panels and one set of 2 panels...). I've tried turning all of those off and on.

 

That included the Webasto while it was running unfortunately so we had a nice lot of diesel smoke and a slight panic (doh).

Edited January 2, 2020 by TheMenagerieAfloat

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Just now, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

Can borrow (mine is still packed away somewhere in storage) but wasn't sure what to check - photos now added although wasn't sure what to snap.

I've altered my reply after seeing the pics. Beg, borrow, steal a multimeter and find the voltage across the choc block connector with the red and black wires going to the pump.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Come on then MtB. What is the most useful?

 

 

The boat, obviously!

 

 

[MtB]

 

5 minutes ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

photos now added although wasn't sure what to snap.

 

Ok, seeing the pics now, and that water staining around the motor/pump junction, I'm incline to guess the water pump shaft seal has run dry for the 4 hours and started leaking, and water has got into the motor.

 

I suspect your best course of action is to just buy a new, identical water pump.

 

On reflection buy two. Water pumps on liveaboards are consumable items like batteries. You'll need a new one soon even after you've replaced this one. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ok, seeing the pics now, and that water staining around the motor/pump junction, I'm incline to guess the water pump shaft seal has run dry for the 4 hours and started leaking, and water has got into the motor.

Even though that was a week ago? ?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

The boat, obviously!

 

 

Duh! ?

[Rickent]

30 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Come on then MtB. What is the most useful?

Smartgauge ? ?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

23 minutes ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

Even though that was a week ago? ?

Possibly. Water isn't always as immediately deadly to electrics as many folk think. Water plus time however means corrosion, which could knacker the pump later. Worth getting a new pump and replacing it. If it works, then the old one was dead. Get another new pump so you have a spare for next time. If it doesn't work, then the problem is most likely in the wiring to the pump. Fix that and you now have a new spare pump ready for when the old one really gives up the ghost. What MtB said, they are a consumable for live on boats.

Jen

3 minutes ago, Rickent said:

Smartgauge ? ?

Nah. That would be the first, second and third most useful. ?

Edited January 2, 2020 by Jen-in-Wellies

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

 

Nah. That's the first, second and third most useful. ?

 

Yes, they display a really helpful-looking BIG RED NUMBER telling you when the battery is fully charged.

 

But buried on Page 29 of the manual it says you must not rely on this.

 

VERY useful!

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

I can't see any connection to an internal pressure switch so that would suggest a remote switch somewhere but that white wire with a tape around its end might be to feed an internal electronic type switch (possibly using current) to decide when the pump is up to pressure but I rather doubt that that. However I have never seen three wires coming out of a water pump motor. Manual time I suspect.

[waterdog]

Apparently the white wire is used to connect an indicator light to show the pump is running.

[blackrose]

Ultimately I suppose everything could be considered as a consumable as everything will eventually wear out, break down and become uneconomic to repair. However, my jabsco parmax 3 has now been in liveaboard use for the last 10 years, so if it is a consumable it's a fairly long service consumable and I wouldn't recommend buying 2 because by the time you come to fit the second it may have been discontinued by the manufacturer and there might be better or lower power consumption pumps on the market. Or you might have even sold the boat!

Edited January 2, 2020 by blackrose

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, waterdog said:

Apparently the white wire is used to connect an indicator light to show the pump is running.

Oh, where do I find that? I just downloaded the brochure but it covers so many models not much on each? 

[waterdog]

1 minute ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

Oh, where do I find that? I just downloaded the brochure but it covers so many models not much on each? 

I did search for "whale uf1214 wiring diagram" and got a hit for a pdf. Tried to link to it in the post but couldn't for some reason.

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

Even though that was a week ago? ?

Fair. We managed to kill a laptop with (according to manufacturer, it shd still have been under warrantee...) liquid at least a fortnight after it cd possibly have suffered a spill... 

1 minute ago, waterdog said:

I did search for "whale uf1214 wiring diagram" and got a hit for a pdf. Tried to link to it in the post but couldn't for some reason.

Thank you! 

 

Will have a look. 

 

Assuming it is dead... How much mess is it to change one? I mean, there is a cut off on the inlet but unsure approx how much water to expect to need to catch from the rest of the system? 

[waterdog]

https://www.whalepumps.com/marine/siteFiles/resources/docs/resource-library/WhaleAccumulatorKit.pdf

 

scroll down to page 4 for wiring instructions

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

Assuming it is dead... How much mess is it to change one? I mean, there is a cut off on the inlet but unsure approx how much water to expect to need to catch from the rest of the system? 

 

Very little. Turn OFF the valve in the supply pipe to the water pump, turn the taps ON to relieve any pressure left in the accumulator, turn the taps back OFF again, thenyou can disconnect the dead pump (once you establish with the multimeter it really is dead). The only water you will spill is that inside the pipes and the pump, perhaps a cupful or two, and it will be clean clear water, not messy. Catch it with a big fluffy towel if you are worried. 

 

 

[Guest]

Additional question... How wd running it dry have caused water damage? Wd have thought heat damage more likely?!? 

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Very little. Turn OFF the valve in the supply pipe to the water pump, turn the taps ON to relieve any pressure left in the accumulator, turn the taps back OFF again, thenyou can disconnect the dead pump (once you establish with the multimeter it really is dead). The only water you will spill is that inside the pipes and the pump, perhaps a cupful or two, and it will be clean clear water, not messy. Catch it with a big fluffy towel if you are worried. 

 

 

That is a bit of a relief, thank you :-) 

 

Think the only other access I have under floor (excluding engine) is two cabins and a head away under the dinette and wasn't keen on flooding the intervening bits!  

[Dr Bob]

17 minutes ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

Assuming it is dead... How much mess is it to change one? I mean, there is a cut off on the inlet but unsure approx how much water to expect to need to catch from the rest of the system? 

 

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I've altered my reply after seeing the pics. Beg, borrow, steal a multimeter and find the voltage across the choc block connector with the red and black wires going to the pump.

OP....make sure you check the choc block voltage before you do anything else. On our boat we had lots of water pump 'scares' in the first year which all turned out to be switch problems. Leaving the switch on for 4 hours could have done some damage.

If you have 13V at the block then buy 2 pumps and keep one as a spare.

[blackrose]

I wouldn't keep one as a spare. You could be storing it for a very long time which is a waste of money. My current pump is now 10 years old but I still think of it as fairly new. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

I wouldn't keep one as a spare. You could be storing it for a very long time which is a waste of money. My current pump is now 10 years old but I still think of it as fairly new. 

 

You however seem unable to accept other people's experience with water pumps is different from yours. 

 

I tend to find I am changing a pump every year on one or another of my boats, and the massive inconvenience of losing water and having to drop everything to go out and find and buy a new pump makes it well worth the trivial cost of keeping a spare pump in stock to me. But not you, I accept. The OP can make up her own mind.