British Transport Commission Hire Fleet

[cheshire~rose]

I am hoping a few of the knowledgable folks on here may be able to assist me.

 

We know from Pete Harrison that Delhi was first converted in 1959 at Gloucester by British Waterways Commission.

 

To quote the information that Pete has kindly supplied us with and to avoid any confusion:

Quote

1959 – cut in two at Gloucester - fore end converted into 41’0'' 4 berth hire cruiser WATER VIPER @ £3459:0:0 - engine = Enfield 2

cylinder horizontally opposed Mk4 MTD / 9041 13.25hp @ 1800 r.p.m

 

Thanks to the CRT archive we have two images of her in this configuration:

 

 

 

 

These two photos are absolutely lovely. Obviously the one of the stern end shows something that no longer exists but the bow is retained on the current conversion.

 

What the images do not show is what the entire boat might have looked like. While it would of course be absolutely amazing to turn up more photos of Water Viper what would be helpful to me is to be able to visualise what one of these hire cruisers might have looked like. I know styles would have varied by length, number of berths and even the yard where they were built BUT does anyone have any information on what other boats in the British Waterways Hire Fleet would have been a similar length and configuration to Water Viper so I can do some searching for some images?

 

We are also told that  in 1965 there were some major improvements to Water Viper but we don't know what these improvements were or where they may have taken place.

 

Pete then tells us:

Quote

1968 – sold to C.W. Huxley, Willenhall – renamed CHARIENE

           (Clive Guthrie records state 1969 sold to Sheppard family, Stretton – renamed CHARIENE)

 

We have no photos of Chariene at all. If anyone does come across a boat called Chariene in old photos (between around 1968 and 2003) then I would be very interested in seeing them.

[cheshire~rose]

Digging through our big file of paperwork for Delhi I realised we do have a tiny thumbnail of a picture of Chariene that was published in HNBC magazine:

 

 

[Derek R.]

That photo is credited to R. Booth. This may be the Richard Booth who is the archivist for the HNBC, in which case he may have other images?

[cheshire~rose]

18 minutes ago, Derek R. said:

That photo is credited to R. Booth. This may be the Richard Booth who is the archivist for the HNBC, in which case he may have other images?

Thank you for that Derek, it is certainly worth a try

[alan_fincher]

The BW hire boats with lengths of somewhere between about 40 and 45 feet were a fairly motley collection of conversions from a variety of working boats including Joshers, Grand Union "small" ("Star") and "large" ("Town") boats (including buttys), and of course LMS boats.

Some were steered from the rear, as in your picture of Water Viper, others were built wheel steered from a centre cockpit.  The "Enfield" air cooled engines get a regular mention, and from memory it is possible to search the archives and find pictures of at least one of these boats with the fire brigade in attendance and the engine on fire!

I seem to recall some BW hire cruisers had fairly unconventional propulsion systems like the Hotchkiss Cone, but maybe that was only in the shorter ones?  Some of the shorter ones I think were petrol rather than diesel powered, but I don't recall details.

The severe transom stern seemed to apply to most of the conversions.

I can't recall seeing Water Viper being featured in one of their brochures, but if you can track copies of the brochure down for various years, perhaps it may have in a year I've not seen?

Attached are images from some brochure pages.  I suspect Water Lily and Water Iris pictured probably had a similar conversion to Water Viper, although neither were LMS boat conversions, I think.

I doubt that any two of these boats were ever very close to identical, though the intention was clearly to create hire boats that were at least similar, and could be hired on the basis of a "class" or type, rather than I think a specific named boat.

[cheshire~rose]

Thanks Alan that is pure gold, I really appreciate that. I must have a dig around and see if I can pick an old brochure up from somewhere.

 

Looking at Water Iris the configuration of the windows/ports is not dissimilar to those on the picture of Chariene so you could be on thr rioght track with your suggestion

 

Thanks a million

[alan_fincher]

So is only some 40 or so feet of Delhi/Dehli from the original boat then?

What is the remaining part of it, and how is it constructed, (welded / riveted)?

I don't think I really realised it was one of the "Water" boats, or if I did, I have since forgotten!

[cheshire~rose]

When you say the "remaining" part do you mean what remains of the original LMS boat or what remains after that original part is discounted? 

The stern end is welded steel, we suspect "washers" rather than rivets but you have to look very closely to spot where "old" ends and "new" begins. Warwickshire Flyboat did a fine job on her 

I would have to go back to the survey to check exactly how much of the boat is old but around 40' is probably close enough. 

[John Brightley]

I would recommend that you obtain a copy of 'Waterways Journal' volume 20 (spring 2018) from The Waterways Museum Society. Contained within it is a very detailed article about the early British Waterways hire boats, including Water Viper. There aren't any photos of the boat, but the article does give the following interesting information, which I hope the author won't mind me copying here:

"In 1959 (Delhi) was moved from Birmingham to Gloucester for conversion to a 4 berth tiller steered hire boat, Water Viper. The choice of Delhi for conversion was strange. A vessel with a 6ft 10in beam apparently could not be obtained, so Delhi, with a width of 7ft 1in, needed to be reduced to 6ft 9in before any further work could be carried out. This was done by cutting longitudinally through the bottom plating and drawing the craft in, over her whole length. The bottom plating was then welded and strengthened by back straps, the swim end stern was fabricated complete with the skeg bar and stern tube. This was far more difficult than originally envisaged. Further strengthening also needed to be done and this, along with difficulties using Gloucester Repair Yard with no available dry dock and where the staff had no experience of this type of work, the high quality finish with additional minor improvements and the Enfield '85' air cooled diesel engine, pushed the cost of conversion up to £3459, much in excess of the £2750 proposed in December 1959. The conversion was undertaken in the Boiler Shop and to float the vessel it had to be moved 200yds on bogies to the waterside, necessitating the services of 10 men for 1 day. In a letter on 29 November 1960, the Mech & Elect Engineer RF Hatton admitted to the Divisional Manager that "in the attempt to produce a really creditable conversion, the Gloucester Repair Yard may have aimed at a higher standard of finish than was strictly neccessary". He added that "we may yet find that the additional expenditure has not been wasted for it is worthy of note that at the end of this season the general condition of the Water Viper is appreciably better than the average and her winter overhaul should therefore be less expensive". This was Gloucester workshop's first conversion and I believe, the last. Water Viper was available to hire from Middlewich by the end of April 1960 after featuring in the Pleasure Craft Display in Birmingham"

[alan_fincher]

Fascinating stuff, John.

It seems odd to have chosen a boat needing so much work, but on the other hand the low sided LMS boats certainly seem more suited in terms of practicality of final result than using a "Town", where the very high hull sides really are quite unsuitable just to have the back end lopped off and a transom stern added.

We did some short consideration to possibly buying Water Valiant/Enceladus but quickly decided it would not be the right boat for us.  That was one of the curious centre cockpit ones, and there is good cine footage of it in use as a hire boat in that condition.

1 hour ago, cheshire~rose said:

I would have to go back to the survey to check exactly how much of the boat is old but around 40' is probably close enough. 

 

Thanks for clarifying - as I said, if I actually ever knew that, I had since forgotten!

[cheshire~rose]

54 minutes ago, John Brightley said:

I would recommend that you obtain a copy of 'Waterways Journal' volume 20 (spring 2018) from The Waterways Museum Society. Contained within it is a very detailed article about the early British Waterways hire boats, including Water Viper. There aren't any photos of the boat, but the article does give the following interesting information, which I hope the author won't mind me copying here:

"In 1959 (Delhi) was moved from Birmingham to Gloucester for conversion to a 4 berth tiller steered hire boat, Water Viper. The choice of Delhi for conversion was strange. A vessel with a 6ft 10in beam apparently could not be obtained, so Delhi, with a width of 7ft 1in, needed to be reduced to 6ft 9in before any further work could be carried out. This was done by cutting longitudinally through the bottom plating and drawing the craft in, over her whole length. The bottom plating was then welded and strengthened by back straps, the swim end stern was fabricated complete with the skeg bar and stern tube. This was far more difficult than originally envisaged. Further strengthening also needed to be done and this, along with difficulties using Gloucester Repair Yard with no available dry dock and where the staff had no experience of this type of work, the high quality finish with additional minor improvements and the Enfield '85' air cooled diesel engine, pushed the cost of conversion up to £3459, much in excess of the £2750 proposed in December 1959. The conversion was undertaken in the Boiler Shop and to float the vessel it had to be moved 200yds on bogies to the waterside, necessitating the services of 10 men for 1 day. In a letter on 29 November 1960, the Mech & Elect Engineer RF Hatton admitted to the Divisional Manager that "in the attempt to produce a really creditable conversion, the Gloucester Repair Yard may have aimed at a higher standard of finish than was strictly neccessary". He added that "we may yet find that the additional expenditure has not been wasted for it is worthy of note that at the end of this season the general condition of the Water Viper is appreciably better than the average and her winter overhaul should therefore be less expensive". This was Gloucester workshop's first conversion and I believe, the last. Water Viper was available to hire from Middlewich by the end of April 1960 after featuring in the Pleasure Craft Display in Birmingham"

That is pure gold!

 

Thank you for sharing that and I will see if I can get a copy of the Waterways Journal you mention. It really is stuff like this that puts flesh on the bones of the history of a boat and I am keen to gather together any bits like this. 

 

Thanks a million for that 

 

[cheshire~rose]

22 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

Thanks for clarifying - as I said, if I actually ever knew that, I had since forgotten!

Well no doubt you will be looking for the join next time you see the boat so here is an out of water preview for you

[alan_fincher]

Nah, I struggle to find our own joins! (Sickle has one, of course).

[Dav and Pen]

We had friends who had one of the Water Mist style cruisers. They travelled all over the system but for a time lived at Stratford on Avon and were very active in the southern Stratford society. Names Meg and Marice (Marie) Frost some of you may remember them.

cant find a photo of the boats but it really slipped along.

[alan_fincher]

On 07/01/2020 at 20:08, Dav and Pen said:

We had friends who had one of the Water Mist style cruisers. They travelled all over the system but for a time lived at Stratford on Avon and were very active in the southern Stratford society. Names Meg and Marice (Marie) Frost some of you may remember them.

cant find a photo of the boats but it really slipped along.

Do you perhaps mean "Water Miss"?

There was a picture on one of the brochure pages I posted earlier.
 

 

Last time we were there, there is also a rough example "preserved" at Ellesmere port....

 

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by alan_fincher

[alan_fincher]

Many of the BW hire boat options are featured in this....

 

 

(Water Miss, for example, at about 07:55)

[cheshire~rose]

On 02/01/2020 at 18:09, John Brightley said:

I would recommend that you obtain a copy of 'Waterways Journal' volume 20 (spring 2018) from The Waterways Museum Society. Contained within it is a very detailed article about the early British Waterways hire boats, including Water Viper. There aren't any photos of the boat, but the article does give the following interesting information, which I hope the author won't mind me copying here:

"In 1959 (Delhi) was moved from Birmingham to Gloucester for conversion to a 4 berth tiller steered hire boat, Water Viper. The choice of Delhi for conversion was strange. A vessel with a 6ft 10in beam apparently could not be obtained, so Delhi, with a width of 7ft 1in, needed to be reduced to 6ft 9in before any further work could be carried out. This was done by cutting longitudinally through the bottom plating and drawing the craft in, over her whole length. The bottom plating was then welded and strengthened by back straps, the swim end stern was fabricated complete with the skeg bar and stern tube. This was far more difficult than originally envisaged. Further strengthening also needed to be done and this, along with difficulties using Gloucester Repair Yard with no available dry dock and where the staff had no experience of this type of work, the high quality finish with additional minor improvements and the Enfield '85' air cooled diesel engine, pushed the cost of conversion up to £3459, much in excess of the £2750 proposed in December 1959. The conversion was undertaken in the Boiler Shop and to float the vessel it had to be moved 200yds on bogies to the waterside, necessitating the services of 10 men for 1 day. In a letter on 29 November 1960, the Mech & Elect Engineer RF Hatton admitted to the Divisional Manager that "in the attempt to produce a really creditable conversion, the Gloucester Repair Yard may have aimed at a higher standard of finish than was strictly neccessary". He added that "we may yet find that the additional expenditure has not been wasted for it is worthy of note that at the end of this season the general condition of the Water Viper is appreciably better than the average and her winter overhaul should therefore be less expensive". This was Gloucester workshop's first conversion and I believe, the last. Water Viper was available to hire from Middlewich by the end of April 1960 after featuring in the Pleasure Craft Display in Birmingham"

I was trying to find your post last week and it turns out I was looking at completely the wrong thread!

 

I want to thank you for bringing this article to our attention. I got the journal and it turns out there are 22 pages of beautifully written pages with photos in the artcle going through a lot of anecdotal stuff about many of the boats that were converted during this period. It was a joy to read!

 

What is even more fascinating is the references at the end of the article had thrown us a link to the fact that there is a folder of documents on Delhi's conversion to Water Viper at the CRT archives in Ellesmere Port. As we need to make a trip to Lymm tomorrow to collect something from Delhi's former owner and Lymm is only half an hour away from Ellesmere Port you can guess where we are going to be heading

 

I am so excited to see what is in that folder!

 

Thank you for opening up that avenue for us.

[Waterway2go]

Has anyone seen photographs of the hire boats that were introduced by BW (or possible BTW) on the Union Canal in Scotland?  I read one reference that described them as small sailing cruisers.

[John Brightley]

8 hours ago, cheshire~rose said:

 

I want to thank you for bringing this article to our attention. I got the journal and it turns out there are 22 pages of beautifully written pages with photos in the artcle going through a lot of anecdotal stuff about many of the boats that were converted during this period. 

Thanks.

I get the feeling that not many people know about 'Waterways Journal' but there are some really interesting articles in there, so it's nice to give the producers of the Journal a bit of publicity.

[cheshire~rose]

4 hours ago, John Brightley said:

Thanks.

I get the feeling that not many people know about 'Waterways Journal' but there are some really interesting articles in there, so it's nice to give the producers of the Journal a bit of publicity.

Over the years many people donated a large variety of different canal related books to me to sell for Chesterfield Canal Trust. 

Among them some years ago were three issues of The Journal. I have a glance at them and realising they were well written and very informative and not having come across any issues before I priced them accordingly feeling certain that someone would snatch my hand off. In fact they stuck with me for ages undergoing several reluctant reductions in price before finally being re-homed. I was really surprised. They are a quality publication in my view. 

[Joseph]

Hello everyone

 

Alan, I'm sorry to say that the Water Miss boat at Ellesmere Port has been "deconstructed". 

 

I am surprised that more people haven't heard of the Waterways Journal. It is annual, produced each year since 1999. Several editions have articles by yours truly in them, but don't let that put you off....! Next one is due out at Easter, I think, and should contain another article about Norman Anglin, whose story featured on here - my grateful thanks to people on this site.  

 

Waterway2go, I've been intrigued by the BW hire boats on Union Canal, not long before it closed; but can't find anything so far. Someone somewhere must know something !

 

Joseph

 

 

[cheshire~rose]

Just to resurrect this thread. That file they had at Ellesmere Port may not have had any further photos of the outside of the boat but it did have something much more detailed. 

 

We had a thoroughly enjoyable excursion and received a very warm welcome at the archives. The documents that are in that folder are a little goldmine of information regarding our boat. Among them was this plan which had been used by the team at Gloucester to convert Delhi. The detail of the construction of that curved edge to the cabin top is rather lovely I think. 

 

Obviously this plan was followed for a number of vessels in the hire fleet and so it would have applied to many different boats. With very grateful thanks to Ellesmere Port National Waterways Archives for allowing us to scan this and share it with you