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Power problems, lots of questions.


SaltyPipe

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5 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

All light flashing on the Sterling alternator regulator is usually the battery sense wire has come disconnected off the battery bank and the controller has no reference to set to. This could also be why only 6 amps charge is possible. The alternator may be ok.

 

Good of you to turn out to help Tony, you're a star.

 

Looks like this boat needs a bit of TLC before it is fit for CCing.

 

But these controllers should default to the alternator's regulator if the wire comes off  yes/no?

 

There were two wires coming from a hole in the case and seemed to be connected. There was a brown wire with an insulated female 6mm connector at the end of it hanging free close to the back of the alternator but there was no obvious place for it to fit. It looked to me like some redundant wiring. The present alternator wiring looks a bit iffy to me (very thin D+ wire) and as if it may have been an after fitment so the brown wire could be related to a different engine/alternator or even the starter.

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2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

But these controllers should default to the alternator's regulator if the wire comes off  yes/no?

That’s always been my understanding. 
 

Well done for sorting it Tony - yer a star. 

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Just now, Tony Brooks said:

 

But these controllers should default to the alternator's regulator if the wire comes off  yes/no?

 

There were two wires coming from a hole in the case and seemed to be connected. There was a brown wire with an insulated female 6mm connector at the end of it hanging free close to the back of the alternator but there was no obvious place for it to fit. It looked to me like some redundant wiring. The present alternator wiring looks a bit iffy to me (very thin D+ wire) and as if it may have been an after fitment so the brown wire could be related to a different engine/alternator or even the starter.

It is doing, at 6 amps limited I suspect. They only drop back solely onto the alternator reg if the field wire from the alternator is disconnected.

 

Sterlings fitting instructions say open the alternator and fit wires to both brushes, reassemble and check voltage on both, find which goes up and down with revs, that's the field control then. 

Insulate and ignore the other. So that could be the ignored wire which will be at B+ all the time I think.

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3 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

It is doing, at 6 amps limited I suspect. They only drop back solely onto the alternator reg if the field wire from the alternator is disconnected.

 

Sterlings fitting instructions say open the alternator and fit wires to both brushes, reassemble and check voltage on both, find which goes up and down with revs, that's the field control then. 

Insulate and ignore the other. So that could be the ignored wire which will be at B+ all the time I think.

Both the cables that look like Sterling related cables seem to be connected to something away from the laternator - there may even be a third.

 

This opens up a can of worms in that if one wire is at B+ it may cause a constant discharge and may explain the flat engine battery. Further investigation is probably needed but I still can't see how properly fitted Sterling regulator cause a low charging current.

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No, the internal reg has to be there as I understand it. Mine did exactly the same flashing when the fuse in the battery sense lead rotted off.

 

Its not properly fitted if the sense wire is off..........................

 

I think it drops to an overvoltage situation, the lights flash if you get overvoltage as well. I may be wrong but my experience says the wire is off the battery.  The fitting instructions are on the net I think. The battery sense wire is red I think, brown is 12v ignition feed green alternator field brush? (may be yellow, they changed the colour).

Edited by Boater Sam
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40 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

No, the internal reg has to be there as I understand it. Mine did exactly the same flashing when the fuse in the battery sense lead rotted off.

 

Its not properly fitted if the sense wire is off..........................

 

I think it drops to an overvoltage situation, the lights flash if you get overvoltage as well. I may be wrong but my experience says the wire is off the battery.  The fitting instructions are on the net I think. The battery sense wire is red I think, brown is 12v ignition feed green alternator field brush? (may be yellow, they changed the colour).

I can't recall seeing any thin sense type wires on the engine battery when I measured the voltage so the OP had better have a good look around the engine battery area but that does not mean that the sense wire has not been incorrectly connected elsewhere.

 

The way there seems to be no charge spitting makes me wonder if the alternator is charging the engine battery while the regulator is sensing the domestic bank.

 

Very close to the main starter feed terminal there is a well deformed double choc block connection for what I have no idea. As you said the boat needs some TLC before CCing.

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5 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

You haven't said where your hot water comes from, but if you have a calorifier with an immersion heater, then your immersion would be your main source, with your mikuni, or engine running as back up.

 

And just to be clear, only use the immersion heater when you are plugged into a shore line. If you try to run it (or any other electric heating) from the invertor you will flatten your batteries very very quickly.

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3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Just back from Iver and the problem is sort of sorted for now.

 

There was enough fuel in the tank but the OP had been told the Mikuni take off was T'd from the engine feed but unless there was a T hidden somewhere and the upper fuel take off was blanked off this is not the case. The Mikuni take off is about 4" above the engine take off.

 

Showed OP how to setup and use his multimeter.

 

Engine battery rested voltage about 11.7, starting voltage 2.3 volts - no wonder it would not start.

 

Took OP through the bleeding process for future reference and then changed the engine battery for a new one. Engine started first time and easily. New engine battery at about 12.57 volts before starting (rested I assume). but when started and revved the alternator output was only about 6 amps. I fear the alternator (A127) is faulty and the Sterling advanced regulator was flashing all its LEDs. I advised the OP to check what the flashing LEDs mean and suggested that he get the alternator off and Tested because the ways things are set up I could not load it to try to push the output up. Also showed how to pull the lever out to allow revving out of gear and advised on optimum revs for charging.

 

I could find no evidence of charge splitting but that does not mean it is not present. Not possible to check with meters because of the mains battery charger and low alternator output. The OP said the boat had been a livabor5d in a marine so I suspect the domestic bank is only charged by the mains charger.

 

I feel a 13V float on the Xantrek is rather low and suspect its absorption charge voltage may be lower than optimum nowadays.

 

Found the Mikuni fuse laying on top of the batteries had a bad connection on one blade so cleaned the blade and squashed its female half and refitted. Mikuni now running as it should but did notice gurgling from its header tank so advised to top up and suggest a leak (i think a leak was supposed to have been fixed but that water went some where.

 

Demoed hydrometer used and readings on domestic bank (two cells both about 2/3 charged and clear) and advised on doing a full hydrometer check - left hydrometer with the OP.

 

Advised on power audit, the unsuitability of ammeter and voltmeter for assessing battery state of charge. Advised the engine will need several hours run  once a week to keep engine bank fully charged and  explained sulphation.

 

Suggested that apart from getting the alternator tested  some form of charge splitting is needed for CCing  away from the mains and suggested a VSR would do the job as long as the charging system is suitably rewired. This woudl also allow the mains charger to charge the engine battery and solar if/when its fitted.

 

I did not tell the OP for fear of memory overload but The alternator main lead wiring suggests a moving iron ammeter and it looks too thin for my liking.I fear that when CCing this   may give problems apart from the fact the Sterling controller should convert the alternator to battery sensing and thus hide any voltdrop.

 

 

The boat should now remain liveable until after the holidays.

 

If they need to have the alternator checked, this company is both local and reputable and are reasonable on charges. 

https://www.yell.com/biz/dbj-auto-electrical-uxbridge-310525/

 

They can also check and repair chargers, etc. 

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6 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Just back from Iver and the problem is sort of sorted for now.

 

There was enough fuel in the tank but the OP had been told the Mikuni take off was T'd from the engine feed but unless there was a T hidden somewhere and the upper fuel take off was blanked off this is not the case. The Mikuni take off is about 4" above the engine take off.

 

Showed OP how to setup and use his multimeter.

 

Engine battery rested voltage about 11.7, starting voltage 2.3 volts - no wonder it would not start.

 

Took OP through the bleeding process for future reference and then changed the engine battery for a new one. Engine started first time and easily. New engine battery at about 12.57 volts before starting (rested I assume). but when started and revved the alternator output was only about 6 amps. I fear the alternator (A127) is faulty and the Sterling advanced regulator was flashing all its LEDs. I advised the OP to check what the flashing LEDs mean and suggested that he get the alternator off and Tested because the ways things are set up I could not load it to try to push the output up. Also showed how to pull the lever out to allow revving out of gear and advised on optimum revs for charging.

 

I could find no evidence of charge splitting but that does not mean it is not present. Not possible to check with meters because of the mains battery charger and low alternator output. The OP said the boat had been a livabor5d in a marine so I suspect the domestic bank is only charged by the mains charger.

 

I feel a 13V float on the Xantrek is rather low and suspect its absorption charge voltage may be lower than optimum nowadays.

 

Found the Mikuni fuse laying on top of the batteries had a bad connection on one blade so cleaned the blade and squashed its female half and refitted. Mikuni now running as it should but did notice gurgling from its header tank so advised to top up and suggest a leak (i think a leak was supposed to have been fixed but that water went some where.

 

Demoed hydrometer used and readings on domestic bank (two cells both about 2/3 charged and clear) and advised on doing a full hydrometer check - left hydrometer with the OP.

 

Advised on power audit, the unsuitability of ammeter and voltmeter for assessing battery state of charge. Advised the engine will need several hours run  once a week to keep engine bank fully charged and  explained sulphation.

 

Suggested that apart from getting the alternator tested  some form of charge splitting is needed for CCing  away from the mains and suggested a VSR would do the job as long as the charging system is suitably rewired. This woudl also allow the mains charger to charge the engine battery and solar if/when its fitted.

 

I did not tell the OP for fear of memory overload but The alternator main lead wiring suggests a moving iron ammeter and it looks too thin for my liking.I fear that when CCing this   may give problems apart from the fact the Sterling controller should convert the alternator to battery sensing and thus hide any voltdrop.

 

 

The boat should now remain liveable until after the holidays.

 

Tony,

 

You are an absolute legend, it isn't possible to tell you how grateful I and the family are for your time and expertise today. It was a great learning experience, thank you so much.

 

SaltyPipe

37 minutes ago, Bod said:

345980108_CwchAlternatorregulator1.jpg.3f73da502acad0e588ac98046a063049.jpg1609782382_CwchAlternatorregulator2.jpg.d525e92e06b268c534b24f3d5587e6b6.jpg2096812241_CwchAlternatorregulator3.jpg.e6eeed15edb166e4fa5fe48e5249fc24.jpg

Hope this can help.

 

Bod

Thank you Bod

5 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

No, the internal reg has to be there as I understand it. Mine did exactly the same flashing when the fuse in the battery sense lead rotted off.

 

Its not properly fitted if the sense wire is off..........................

 

I think it drops to an overvoltage situation, the lights flash if you get overvoltage as well. I may be wrong but my experience says the wire is off the battery.  The fitting instructions are on the net I think. The battery sense wire is red I think, brown is 12v ignition feed green alternator field brush? (may be yellow, they changed the colour).

Thanks to you too Boater Sam for all your input, I will do my best to unpick everything over the next few days and see what connected where.

 

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There is no brown wire on the D+, just a thin single blackish wire. Although the free brown wire with the spade on the end looks a bit thick for typical Sterling wiring and I could not see a make blade on the D+ post it could explain the flashing lights. It is possible a bodger had just pushed the female connector over the D+ stud but I can't recommend you do that. It would be better to trace that brown wire and report back.

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Well having had a look at the rogue brown wire, it's brown with a yellow stripe. It connects to something very obvious that i cant name (pic 1), zoomed out (pic 4).

 

Some other pictures of the alternator included for those interested... The loose brown/brown-yellow wire evident in all its glory.

 

Engine is running, all LEDs flashing on the Sterling Power panel as mentioned yesterday (i was unable to run the engine yesterday due to other errands), started first time today and purring nicely, will run till 1pm (4 hours). Will check the starter battery rested voltage tomorrow morning.

 

Thanks all again for the help and advice.

 

 

 

 

IMG_20200103_092446.jpg

IMG_20200103_093515.jpg

IMG_20200103_093525.jpg

IMG_20200103_093538.jpg

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On 01/01/2020 at 14:32, SaltyPipe said:

 

 

IMG_20200101_111000.jpg

 

Not the cause of your latest problems, but that is a particularly messy way to wire a bank of batteries, with various wires connected seemingly at random to different battery terminals. All of the external wires (i.e. other than the interconnects) should be connected only to one positive and one negative terminal, ideally at diagonally opposite corners of the bank.

More at http://smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

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Brown yellow would seem to be the starter solenoid feed wire, the colour code is correct.

That is the one that comes up live when you turn the key to the start position, it energises the solenoid which kicks in the starter motor underneath. Why it should appear again, if it does , behind the alternator is a mystery to me.

 

The green wire with the red ring terminal on the back of the alternator looks to be the tacho connection.

 

The 2 extra wires from behind the voltage regulator on the top of the alternator look to be from the 2 brushes inside, extras added for the Sterling alternator controller. The green one looks like it could be the field wire that goes to the white wire on the Sterling box.

 

The other (red?) wire looks to be insulated and tied out of the way, not connected to anything,  in the bundle. I may be wrong, can't see.

That could be the wire that is not needed for the Sterling, see the instructions about adding the field control wire. If not I have no idea what it is, does it connect to anything anywhere?

Edited by Boater Sam
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More thoughts.

 

I don't believe you are suffering an actual over voltage from the alternator because if you were the charging current should have shown more than 6 amps or so. The Sterling may think you are and has thus shut itself down but that should leave the alternator running on its own regulator.

 

I agree with Sam that it looks as if the battery sense wire may have fallen off but although I never saw one yesterday. Although it would be usual to sense from the domestic bank in your case and if I am correct about there being no charge splitting (yet to be investigated) then the sense wire might have been fitted on the engine battery otherwise the Sterling could never sense the charging voltage at the battery the alternator is connected.

 

 

The alternator is not painted Thorneycroft green so we can assume its a changed alternator. The original may well have used spade connectors for D+ and possibly B+ and if so my guess woudl be that the small female blade on the brown wire was originally the D+ warning lamp wire.

 

 

Because the domestic bank is under the back step that has a metal frame I did not suggest putting a jump lead between the domestic battery pos & engine battery  pos for fear of getting it cut through by the metal and short circuiting but last night I though that if you slid a couple of your wood offcuts along each side of the step the board could sit on top with a gap for the jump lead to pass through.  Then with both bank's positives connected the mains charger would charge both banks but just in case the domestic & engine negatives are not joined (I think they are) do the following:

 

Disconnect the shoreline and fit the jump lead.

Measure the engine battery voltage & note.

Reconnect the shore line & measure the engine battery voltage.

If the voltage has gone up the shoreline is now charging both banks.

 

Just be aware that if you loose shore power you will need to disconnect the jump lead PDQ to prevent the domestic load flattening the engine battery. I would disconnect it each night in case the shoreline trips when you are asleep .

 

 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

More thoughts.

 

I don't believe you are suffering an actual over voltage from the alternator because if you were the charging current should have shown more than 6 amps or so. The Sterling may think you are and has thus shut itself down but that should leave the alternator running on its own regulator.

 

I agree with Sam that it looks as if the battery sense wire may have fallen off but although I never saw one yesterday. Although it would be usual to sense from the domestic bank in your case and if I am correct about there being no charge splitting (yet to be investigated) then the sense wire might have been fitted on the engine battery otherwise the Sterling could never sense the charging voltage at the battery the alternator is connected.

 

 

The alternator is not painted Thorneycroft green so we can assume its a changed alternator. The original may well have used spade connectors for D+ and possibly B+ and if so my guess woudl be that the small female blade on the brown wire was originally the D+ warning lamp wire.

 

 

Because the domestic bank is under the back step that has a metal frame I did not suggest putting a jump lead between the domestic battery pos & engine battery  pos for fear of getting it cut through by the metal and short circuiting but last night I though that if you slid a couple of your wood offcuts along each side of the step the board could sit on top with a gap for the jump lead to pass through.  Then with both bank's positives connected the mains charger would charge both banks but just in case the domestic & engine negatives are not joined (I think they are) do the following:

 

Disconnect the shoreline and fit the jump lead.

Measure the engine battery voltage & note.

Reconnect the shore line & measure the engine battery voltage.

If the voltage has gone up the shoreline is now charging both banks.

 

Just be aware that if you loose shore power you will need to disconnect the jump lead PDQ to prevent the domestic load flattening the engine battery. I would disconnect it each night in case the shoreline trips when you are asleep .

 

 

 

 

 

Its probable that we have analysed as much as possible from a distance Tony. I think your observations would suggest that a rewire of the alternator, Sterling regulator and split charging arrangement is going to be required if this boat is going to function reliably. There remains a big question mark over the cabin batteries.

You time and patience explaining the workings to the owner are most likely gold in his ears, he has a lot to catch up on!

At least your timely intervention has made the boat habitable for now and the owner has more idea of how to cope.

You are rare creature, we are luck to have you around.

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