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Power problems, lots of questions.


SaltyPipe

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Hi All,

I would be very grateful if someone (or multiple someones) can help me understand how my batteries/alternator/charging system works. Myself the wife and 3 semi freezing children moved aboard a definite project boat 3 weeks ago and things are not going well. The boatyard where she is moored (HLY Iver) have been very helpful whilst they have been having invoices paid but no-one is around now till next week.

 

As far as other options for housing go, without the boat we're homeless, so any help will be very welcome.

 

The current problem occurred after our shoreline tripped the fuse in the boatyard (we are currently sharing a 16 amp fuse with another boat). They have no space in the official moorings here for us.

We were without AC power for just over 36 hours, all the 12v electrics were working and our inverter (Xantrex Freedom 25) was happily humming away powering a small amount of 240v electrics. Our heating with the shoreline had been a 2 Kw oil rad at the front of the boat, with a Mikuni MX60 with traditional radiators at the back of the boat. With the shoreline out we just ran the Mikuni. The Mikuni was set on a timer to come on and off every few hours just to keep some heat on the boat. After about 20 hours the Mikuni control panel went blank (no power?!) all other electrics were still working (DC and AC through inverter). I wondered if firing the engine up would help, Thornycroft BMC 1.8, fired up first time (as usual and after 5 minutes the Mikuni control panel was working and the heating fired up). fast forward to yesterday and had the same issue, Mikuni had died in the night. Tried to start the engine. Turned over normally but would not start, then started to turn over more slowly and I figure the starter battery was drained "Halfords HB110 (75AH, 680CCA)". After a few calls I managed to get someone from HLY to reset the shoreline. Things looked good on the Xantrex panel and I could see the DC AMPS ramp up with what i assumed to be a charging cycle starting on the leisure batteries "3 x 'Elite' 110Ahr". The Mikuni panel never came back on, and the engine wont turn over still (I was hoping the starter battery would get charged too?). I tried switching the ignition key to AUX as I read that we might have a battery to battery charging setup (or is this purely for when the engine is running??). Whether it was a coincidence or not after a few hours the Mikuni control panel, was back on, but as soon as i tried pressing any buttons to fire it up it died (blank panel again). 

 

Having eyeballed the batteries inspection window, over the past 24 hours the starter battery has gone from a bright green to a dim green. The leisure batteries have gone from bright/bright/dim to bright/dim/very dim. 

 

I traced what i think are the main power wires from the Mikuni to the leisure batteries, I just did some more digging before posting and think the CR2032 cell battery in the Mikuni control panel had died, have replaced it and the panel is working fine now. However no power light is coming on when I cycle through off - auto - on. Normally when set to 'on' the power light comes on and a click is heard from the Mikuni as the unit powers on. If the Mikuni gets power from the leisure batteries and other 12v electrics are working why does the Mikuni not try to start? The starter battery seems to have some charge, but engine wont even try to turn over anymore, how can i charge it fully from the shoreline? Do i have the required kit on-board?

 

Sorry this is a very rambling post but I really will appreciate any help anyone can give.

 

 

Regards,

SaltyPipe 

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10 minutes ago, SaltyPipe said:

Hi All,

I would be very grateful if someone (or multiple someones) can help me understand how my batteries/alternator/charging system works. Myself the wife and 3 semi freezing children moved aboard a definite project boat 3 weeks ago and things are not going well. The boatyard where she is moored (HLY Iver) have been very helpful whilst they have been having invoices paid but no-one is around now till next week.

 

As far as other options for housing go, without the boat we're homeless, so any help will be very welcome.

 

The current problem occurred after our shoreline tripped the fuse in the boatyard (we are currently sharing a 16 amp fuse with another boat). They have no space in the official moorings here for us.

We were without AC power for just over 36 hours, all the 12v electrics were working and our inverter (Xantrex Freedom 25) was happily humming away powering a small amount of 240v electrics. Our heating with the shoreline had been a 2 Kw oil rad at the front of the boat, with a Mikuni MX60 with traditional radiators at the back of the boat. With the shoreline out we just ran the Mikuni. The Mikuni was set on a timer to come on and off every few hours just to keep some heat on the boat. After about 20 hours the Mikuni control panel went blank (no power?!) all other electrics were still working (DC and AC through inverter). I wondered if firing the engine up would help, Thornycroft BMC 1.8, fired up first time (as usual and after 5 minutes the Mikuni control panel was working and the heating fired up). fast forward to yesterday and had the same issue, Mikuni had died in the night. Tried to start the engine. Turned over normally but would not start, then started to turn over more slowly and I figure the starter battery was drained "Halfords HB110 (75AH, 680CCA)". After a few calls I managed to get someone from HLY to reset the shoreline. Things looked good on the Xantrex panel and I could see the DC AMPS ramp up with what i assumed to be a charging cycle starting on the leisure batteries "3 x 'Elite' 110Ahr". The Mikuni panel never came back on, and the engine wont turn over still (I was hoping the starter battery would get charged too?). I tried switching the ignition key to AUX as I read that we might have a battery to battery charging setup (or is this purely for when the engine is running??). Whether it was a coincidence or not after a few hours the Mikuni control panel, was back on, but as soon as i tried pressing any buttons to fire it up it died (blank panel again). 

 

Having eyeballed the batteries inspection window, over the past 24 hours the starter battery has gone from a bright green to a dim green. The leisure batteries have gone from bright/bright/dim to bright/dim/very dim. 

 

I traced what i think are the main power wires from the Mikuni to the leisure batteries, I just did some more digging before posting and think the CR2032 cell battery in the Mikuni control panel had died, have replaced it and the panel is working fine now. However no power light is coming on when I cycle through off - auto - on. Normally when set to 'on' the power light comes on and a click is heard from the Mikuni as the unit powers on. If the Mikuni gets power from the leisure batteries and other 12v electrics are working why does the Mikuni not try to start? The starter battery seems to have some charge, but engine wont even try to turn over anymore, how can i charge it fully from the shoreline? Do i have the required kit on-board?

 

Sorry this is a very rambling post but I really will appreciate any help anyone can give.

 

 

Regards,

SaltyPipe 

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Firstly. 16 amp shoreline is not a lot these days especially if your sharing it. Is there folk on the boat your sharing with. Second I'd have all those domestic battery terminals apart and clean them and the posts.  And the starter batteries too.  See what happens after that.

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I fear you have destroyed your batteries by running the inverter and everything else until they were so low that they are sulphated. The Mukuni shuts down because the voltage is now too low.

The Mukuni will only work when connected to a good well charged battery bank, it needs lots of current to fire up..

 

Ignore the battery magic eyes, they mean zilch. It just a bit o plastic dipping into one cell of the 6. Ensure the battery connections are all clean and tight, no loose wires or clamps. Switch you isolator switches off and on a few times too.

 

You battery charger is not charging your engine battery, just the leisure (cabin) batteries.   

If you have or can borrow a battery jump lead connect the starter + (red) with the leisure + and get your starter battery  back up with your battery charger, it will take hours. The - terminals should be connected together already with your wiring.

 

Then get your engine running at a fast tickover, 1500 revs min for as long as you can bear, at least 12 hours.  You can take off the jump lead once it is running.

You may save the batteries a bit if you do it soon enough for long enough.

Edited by Boater Sam
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It would be unusual for the Heart interface to charge the starter battery, this would normally just be charged by the engine alternator. 

How far apart are the two battery banks??...you could piggy back the starter to the domestic bank to charge it and then put it back on it's own. It's quite a small battery for that kind of engine.

It doesn't appear as though the Mikuni is powered from the starter, although that is a possibility.

Thorneycroft engines often have a large mega fuse between the batteries and engine starter, these can blow...although havingbyhe engine turning suggests this is not the case.

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Another question for you. Have yoy got diesel in the tank? You can improvise a dipstick by using a broom handle or similar, remember that the take off point for the engine and Mikuni is likely to be about 2inches possibly more above the bottom of the tank. This is so that the crud in the tank doesn't get into the engine etc. If your diesel tank is very low try and get some more even by going to a filling station and buying 50 litres. You will have to bleed the engine and the Mikuni. BMC 1.8s are notoriously difficult to bleed so you may need help. Tony Brooks is the man to give guidance on this.

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1 hour ago, bizzard said:

Firstly. 16 amp shoreline is not a lot these days especially if your sharing it. Is there folk on the boat your sharing with.

If you are taking 2KW for the electric fire, plus power for your inverter  then that only leaves 1KW ish for the other boat sharing the shore power. If they put a 2KW fire on, it will trip the breaker. First of all try and find a 16A shore supply that you dont have to share. At least then you can get some heat back in the boat. 16A is very limiting when you want to run electric fires, heat your water via an immersion heater and run other electricals.

 

As above it sounds like you are not charging your engine start battery via the charger. If the main bank is well enough charged then a set of jump leads should be enough to get the engine start battery working. The question then is ....are you charging your main bank ok? The lights on one of the images suggests you have 13V+ with a small charge current...so maybe they are on a float charge...so maybe a good charge. If you put jump leads across to the engine start battery and the engine doesnt start then it is doubtful the main bank is charged. Even if you have lost a lot of capacity in the main bank due to running them right down, if they are 'full' and being supported by the charger on float, then they should turn over the engine.

 

What we really need is some voltage readings. Do you have a decent multimeter? Anyone living on a canal boat and relying on batteries SHOULD HAVE a decent multimeter. It is impossible to diagnose problems without.  Without voltages, it is very difficult to determine why the Mikuni is not firing up. If we knew you were getting 14.4V on charging and had an at rest voltage of 12.7V (after discharging the surface charge) then we would know the batteries should support the heater.....and if you have 13.3V on float with the battery charger connected and 'on' that should support the heater as well. If the voltage is good then the fault must lie in the Mikuni. If you dont have a decent multimeter then buy one asap so next time you can get your problems diagnosed quickly.

 

So

1) get on a solid shore power connection....preferably not sharing

2) put the charger on and get some charge into the main bank. If its been on, then turn off and on again to get it back to bulk charge.

3) put a set of jump leads over to the engine start battery and start the engine (I assume that will give you hot water?)

4) Start the mikuni once the engine is going  ...you then may be able to turn the engine off.

5) Charge batteries for 48 hrs on shore power....then do some measurements with a multimeter to see if you have knackered them

6) If  Mikuni doesnt start up in (4) then do some measurements with a  multimeter and get advice from here on how to get it going.

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2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Would it help if I drove to you tomorrow A.M. FOC and tried to help? I will need to know if you have a jump lead or a pair of them aboard.

 

Ring 01189874285 today if you want to accept.

 

 

That is a great offer. Tony is your man!

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4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

The lights on one of the images suggests you have 13V+ with a small charge current...so maybe they are on a float charge...

The Float light isn’t lit and the Fast Charge is. That suggests to me that the charger is in bulk, outputting its max Amps into highly discharged batteries. 

 

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Would it help if I drove to you tomorrow A.M. FOC and tried to help? I will need to know if you have a jump lead or a pair of them aboard.

 

Ring 01189874285 today if you want to accept.

 

 

What an amazing offer - accept quickly :)

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14 minutes ago, WotEver said:

The Float light isn’t lit and the Fast Charge is. That suggests to me that the charger is in bulk, outputting its max Amps into highly discharged batteries. 

 

 

I was looking at the first pic rather than the 3rd. First one shows 13.0V and <10A flowing.

So we need to know if the first and 3rd pic were taken at the same time (ie....a problem) or a different time.......hence the need for a decent multimeter.

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24 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Would it help if I drove to you tomorrow A.M. FOC and tried to help? I will need to know if you have a jump lead or a pair of them aboard.

 

Ring 01189874285 today if you want to accept.

 

 

 

 

Tony, what a fantastic offer. Kudos.

 

OP please accept Tony's offer - he is quite an expert.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, SaltyPipe said:

Thanks all for all the great replies. The pictures were taken at the same time. 

 

I have been out and bought a multimeter, heavy duty jump leads and a YAUSA 900cca battery. 

 

There is a possibility we ran out of diesel the night without power, but there was a good 5-6 inches in the tank when I dipped it. 

 

Just called Tony Brooks and took him up on his very generous offer and he will no doubt shed some light on things tomorrow. 

 

Thanks again everyone

Please let us know how you get on with Tony as the solutions may help someone else in similar circumstances. Tony is a good guy nearly 20 years ago I did a course with him on engine maintenance.

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1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

If you are taking 2KW for the electric fire, plus power for your inverter  then that only leaves 1KW ish for the other boat sharing the shore power. If they put a 2KW fire on, it will trip the breaker. First of all try and find a 16A shore supply that you dont have to share. At least then you can get some heat back in the boat. 16A is very limiting when you want to run electric fires, heat your water via an immersion heater and run other electricals.

 

As above it sounds like you are not charging your engine start battery via the charger. If the main bank is well enough charged then a set of jump leads should be enough to get the engine start battery working. The question then is ....are you charging your main bank ok? The lights on one of the images suggests you have 13V+ with a small charge current...so maybe they are on a float charge...so maybe a good charge. If you put jump leads across to the engine start battery and the engine doesnt start then it is doubtful the main bank is charged. Even if you have lost a lot of capacity in the main bank due to running them right down, if they are 'full' and being supported by the charger on float, then they should turn over the engine.

 

What we really need is some voltage readings. Do you have a decent multimeter? Anyone living on a canal boat and relying on batteries SHOULD HAVE a decent multimeter. It is impossible to diagnose problems without.  Without voltages, it is very difficult to determine why the Mikuni is not firing up. If we knew you were getting 14.4V on charging and had an at rest voltage of 12.7V (after discharging the surface charge) then we would know the batteries should support the heater.....and if you have 13.3V on float with the battery charger connected and 'on' that should support the heater as well. If the voltage is good then the fault must lie in the Mikuni. If you dont have a decent multimeter then buy one asap so next time you can get your problems diagnosed quickly.

 

So

1) get on a solid shore power connection....preferably not sharing

2) put the charger on and get some charge into the main bank. If its been on, then turn off and on again to get it back to bulk charge.

3) put a set of jump leads over to the engine start battery and start the engine (I assume that will give you hot water?)

4) Start the mikuni once the engine is going  ...you then may be able to turn the engine off.

5) Charge batteries for 48 hrs on shore power....then do some measurements with a multimeter to see if you have knackered them

6) If  Mikuni doesnt start up in (4) then do some measurements with a  multimeter and get advice from here on how to get it going.

Thank you for the in depth response.

 

Static pictures sometimes can be misleading so some more info...

 

If i pull the shoreline out of the commando socket, then i hear the inverter kick in and everything starts running on batteries, I can see the power draw ramp up on the DC Amps column on picture 1. (I only did this for 10-15 seconds earlier to see what was happening). When i plug the shoreline back in the inverter cuts out and i see the battery state in picture 1 goes to red, DC Volts goes to 14 or 14.5. after about a minute battery state goes amber and then to green and the Volts drop back to 13 and the Xantrex goes quiet. 

 

Am i right in saying the gizmo in picture 3 is only useful if the engine is running?

 

Also I picked up a Rolson multimeter this afternoon, no idea what to do with it though lol.

 

Edit: The other boat has no-one living aboard ATM so we should have 16amps to ourselves, had no trip outs in the last 2 weeks until this incident.

 

Cheers, 

 

SaltyPipe

Edited by SaltyPipe
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2 minutes ago, SaltyPipe said:

Am i right in saying the gizmo in picture 3 is only useful if the engine is running?

Yes. I should have looked closer the first time when I assumed it was a charger. 

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

I was looking at the first pic rather than the 3rd. First one shows 13.0V and <10A flowing.

Yes, the third pic is an alternator controller not a charger. I should have looked closer the first time. 


I suspect there might not be a whole lot wrong other than very tired batteries which require replacement. No point in guessing though, Tony will sort him out tomorrow. 

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1 hour ago, Rickent said:

I know this doesn't help your current predicament but a multi fuel stove is a must on a narrowboat. If every other system on your boat fails you will always stay warm.

There was a cracked and broken Squirrel on board which we have bought a replacement for, nobody able to help fit it due to Xmas etc. The irony that I have two multi fuel stoves sat next to each other and niether working is not lost on me. 

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7 hours ago, SaltyPipe said:

There was a cracked and broken Squirrel on board which we have bought a replacement for, nobody able to help fit it due to Xmas etc. The irony that I have two multi fuel stoves sat next to each other and niether working is not lost on me. 

Oh dear, I am sure you will get sorted soon and you will be sat in a warm and toasty boat.

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Others here are far more expert on eleckriceral matters but I will say this:

 

1. You are a family living on a boat (which can be a lovely thing).

It's winter.

This is all new to you.

 

2.  Boating is not necessarily cheap.  Especially when things go wrong.  (Big respect to Tony Brooks in this case though).

 

3.  I would strongly advise you to fit a solid fuel stove in your boat for heating.  This advice is frequently given on this forum.  This topic neatly demonstrates why.  If you're living on a boat, a reliable heating source is probably the number priority (except maybe a leaking hull!). 

 

4.  I would argue that there's a 'Big Three' for boating liveaboards - Heating, hot water, & battery charging/electricity.  You need to get yourself to a place where you have a reliable way of producing each one of these, and then a back-up method for emergencies.

 

Your heating should be reliably produced by a solid fuel stove, with the mikuni and mains heaters as your back-up.

 

You haven't said where your hot water comes from, but if you have a calorifier with an immersion heater, then your immersion would be your main source, with your mikuni, or engine running as back up.

 

Your batteries will be mainly charged by the mains battery charger, with engine running as back-up.

 

5.  You're in a good position in that you have a mooring with some kind of mains hook-up.  But you've been relying too much on that hook-up.  A 16a supply is not like a mains supply to a house.  If you're splitting it, you have 8a each.  This equates to 1920w each.  You have been running a 2000w heater which is already more than your half.  An immersion heater will typically take another 1000w.  Then you have battery charger, tv, etc.  It's no wonder you tripped the fuse.  Also, 2000w is unlikely to be enough to keep a boat properly warm.  It hasn't even been that cold recently.  A typical boat stove will kick out about 5000w of heat and keep you and your kids warm.

 

6.  If you do fit a stove, make sure it's done properly, and doesn't not risk a fire breaking out through pyrolysis.

 

 

  • Greenie 2
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All light flashing on the Sterling alternator regulator is usually the battery sense wire has come disconnected off the battery bank and the controller has no reference to set to. This could also be why only 6 amps charge is possible. The alternator may be ok.

 

Good of you to turn out to help Tony, you're a star.

 

Looks like this boat needs a bit of TLC before it is fit for CCing.

Edited by Boater Sam
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