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What's in a Name (or the spelling of one)


cheshire~rose

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1 hour ago, magpie patrick said:

On the second half of this, local names fascinate me. They are so ingrained for those that know and a mystery to those that don't. As I leave Marple in the car I pass through the lights at Seventeen Windows, I doubt anyone not local has a clue where it is. In Frome Wesley Slope describes a very specific location that isn't on any map.

 

Back to your boat, to me a boat has only two names, the original one and the one it has now. I never did work out Lutine's original one so she was stuck with Lutine Belle. I'd probably go with the original for Delhi, it is the historic one and not too dissimilar to the current one!

really?  it's on Google Earth, just outside the Wesleyian Chapel   .  https://www.google.com/search?q=Frome+Wesley+Slope&oq=Frome+Wesley+Slope&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Edited by Murflynn
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35 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

really?  it's on Google Earth, just outside the Wesleyian Chapel   .  https://www.google.com/search?q=Frome+Wesley+Slope&oq=Frome+Wesley+Slope&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Which means Google have picked up a local colloquialism! I'm impressed although it will take away some of the mystery of local names. 

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On 28/12/2019 at 17:31, cheshire~rose said:

When I first saw the advert for Dehli the incorrect spelling of the name stuck out like a sore thumb to me but I have to admit that I don't even see it any more.

 

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When we were trying to work out why it might be spelt that way some research showed that the city in India was previously spelt Dehli in pre- colonial times. As Delhi was built in 1930 that would not explain the spelling on the side and as it was originally named Delhi by Yarwoods it was a mystery and so we just put it down to being a typo that we can get corrected when the boat is painted next year.

 

Thought I sorted that for you back in July!

 

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10 hours ago, Athy said:

From memory there are eight ways of pronouncing "ough" in English - most confusing for people learning the language.

 

A few years back we confused my son's American then girlfriend (now wife) when we were driving up the M1 by asking her to read out the place names on the signs as we passed the turnings to Leicester and Loughborough!

 

Edited by David Mack
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Goodness.  I once bought a car without noticing it had a different number plate back and front until the police knocked on my door... it was clear to see how slightly bad hand-writing had been misread by the person making one of them - but funny too...

 

What is Delhi/Dehli called on her license? I think that is her current name. I have a one family member with a misspelling of a foreign name on their birth certificate so a completely unique name and one with a phonetic version of a common, generally non-phonetic, name no-one used to believe was spelt right - becasue a primary school teacher had done it to make things 'simple' ?

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Time for a confession.

 

It would appear that DELHI was named as DEHLI as a direct result of an article I wrote for the H.N.B.O.C. Newsletter on 31 December 2002, and published early in 2003. This article related to the 'British Waterways' pleasure boat conversions created out of redundant commercial boats. I used the original name for this hull on two occasions and on both spelt it as DEHLI. To be honest when I wrote this article I had no idea there were alternative spellings, and it did not cross my mind that this would be haunting me almost twenty years later. During 2003 and 2004 I spent a considerable amount of time transcribing several sets of B.C.N. gauge registers and entering these into a Microsoft Access database, and it was at this point that my interest in B.C.N. boats started to evolve as I had something tangible to work with. From these registers it is clear that I miss-spelt the name DELHI and I am mortified that I am responsible for a boat being lettered incorrectly as the then then owner believed what I wrote based upon my 'reputation'. 

 

I have always had a reluctance to publish for a number of reasons, one being mistakes are perpetuated into fact once they have been published, and most people believe what they read. Fortunately the boat in question can be re-lettered correctly in the future, but I shall continue to resist publishing anything for obvious reasons :captain:

 

edit = alter conversations to conversions - I do love a spellchecker which is very relevant to this thread !

Edited by pete harrison
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10 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

Time for a confession.

 

It would appear that DELHI was named as DEHLI as a direct result of an article I wrote for the H.N.B.O.C. Newsletter on 31 December 2002, and published early in 2003. This article related to the 'British Waterways' pleasure boat conversations created out of redundant commercial boats. I used the original name for this hull on two occasions and on both spelt it as DEHLI. To be honest when I wrote this article I had no idea there were alternative spellings, and it did not cross my mind that this would be haunting me almost twenty years later. During 2003 and 2004 I spent a considerable amount of time transcribing several sets of B.C.N. gauge registers and entering these into a Microsoft Access database, and it was at this point that my interest in B.C.N. boats started to evolve as I had something tangible to work with. From these registers it is clear that I miss-spelt the name DELHI and I am mortified that I am responsible for a boat being lettered incorrectly as the then then owner believed what I wrote based upon my 'reputation'. 

 

I have always had a reluctance to publish for a number of reasons, one being mistakes are perpetuated into fact once they have been published, and most people believe what they read. Fortunately the boat in question can be re-lettered correctly in the future, but I shall continue to resist publishing anything for obvious reasons :captain:

honesty becomes you like a garland of roses.   not many would fess up in that way.    :cheers:

 

....................  err, but I'm not sure the concept of 'alternative spellings' is quite right  :blush:

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4 hours ago, pete harrison said:

This thread suggests that DELHI can be spelt as DEHLI, historically anyway, but as far as the boat in question is concerned it can only be DELHI :captain:

 

Any genuine "error" just adds to the rich history.  ;)

 

 

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It is not only the name that is the issue it is the Registered at Birmingham, which is another.

 

As built for the LMS for the railway interchange traffic, this craft DELHI was registered, as Pete Harrison states, by the Birmingham Canal Navigations as 1606, but the wording suggests that it was Birmingham Corporation Sanitary registration, of course 1606 in that list was FRANCE, a Fellows, Morton & Clayton boat. For DELHI, there was was no need to register it in the Sanitary List. So DELHI was gauged at Tipton with that number and should have a BCN gauging plate.

 

For the owner of the vessel it remains their decision to name the craft as they wish, but if there is any interest in historical accuracy, may be a different signage should be used. But then in the converted state, it is, there is little resemblance to what it looked like as built and so it os perhaps best to leave the craft as it is, at least until the next sale.

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On 30/12/2019 at 17:16, pete harrison said:

Time for a confession.

 

It would appear that DELHI was named as DEHLI as a direct result of an article I wrote for the H.N.B.O.C. Newsletter on 31 December 2002, and published early in 2003. This article related to the 'British Waterways' pleasure boat conversions created out of redundant commercial boats. I used the original name for this hull on two occasions and on both spelt it as DEHLI. To be honest when I wrote this article I had no idea there were alternative spellings, and it did not cross my mind that this would be haunting me almost twenty years later. During 2003 and 2004 I spent a considerable amount of time transcribing several sets of B.C.N. gauge registers and entering these into a Microsoft Access database, and it was at this point that my interest in B.C.N. boats started to evolve as I had something tangible to work with. From these registers it is clear that I miss-spelt the name DELHI and I am mortified that I am responsible for a boat being lettered incorrectly as the then then owner believed what I wrote based upon my 'reputation'. 

 

I have always had a reluctance to publish for a number of reasons, one being mistakes are perpetuated into fact once they have been published, and most people believe what they read. Fortunately the boat in question can be re-lettered correctly in the future, but I shall continue to resist publishing anything for obvious reasons :captain:

 

edit = alter conversations to conversions - I do love a spellchecker which is very relevant to this thread !

Sorry I have not responded before.

 

I have been away at the Loughborough Banter and could only post a reply using my phone and I felt any reply deserved to be longer than what I was likely to be able to say when posting from my phone.

 

I would like to thank Pete for his honesty and integrity.  He came forward very early on in our period of ownership of Delhi to make a private confession to us about this matter. We had been quite concerned about whether the currect spelling of the name formed a relatively important part of the boats heritage meaning it must be kept that way when we repainted her or whether we could change it back to Delhi without the wrath of later custodians decending upon us.

 

I have to say that when I got his message we both felt like a huge weight of responsibility had been lifted from our shoulders. I knew Pete was embarrased about the mistake and promised I would not tell anyone how it came to be but it is amazing how difficult it is to keep identities out of the discussion when so many people seem to want to know why it's spelled the way it is on the cabin sides. I had developed a method of telling the tale with just enough information to satisy most folks with insuficient (I hoped) to identify the individual at the root of the mistake. For most people the had their answer and moved on to discssuing other stuff (is it claustrauphobic sleeping under the tug deck seems to be a popular one - the answer being no it's not)

 

It was  only just before Christmas I had the opportunity to speak at length with John, the previous owner and he had been blissfully unaware that his reliance on a print out of that article which was published just as he was building the boat led to the name being spelt wrong on the side. When I mentioned the article he remembered it well and told me who has written it. He talked of Pete most highly and it was very clear that he (rightfully) held his impressive knowledge of the boat's history in very high esteem. When I mentioned there had been a typo in the article he went really quiet on the other end of the phone for a moment as he digested the information and realisation came about. He immediately told us we MUST put the mistake right when we repaint her and I think he feels quite embarrased that his reliance on that article has led to many, many years of him not really being able to explain to all the people who askd why it is spelt the way it is

 

For Pete to "come out" publicly on this must have taken a great deal of courage but it is much appreciated. His attention to detail is such that to realise there was a typo in that article must have been very hard to accept and then to find it has haunted him all these years is really most unfair and he doesn't deserve to have had to live with that.

 

He has been a huge help to Chesterfield Canal Trust in providing a detailed history of Python which allowed us to make the case for her restoration and by doing so meant that the grants and funds we needed to restore the boat came in. Prior to that there were a large part of  the historic boating fraternity who viewed the boat as an ugly "abortion" of what it had once been and many were not slow to ensure they told the volunteers that is what they thought at any opportunity. Thanks to my interpretation of the history Pete provided I have managed to turn that view around in the minds of many and while she will always be a converted vessel without brass or fancy paintwork in the cabin as she once had my belief is that the boat did more work in her years after conversion than she ever did in her earlier full length guise. What is more she is continuing to work hard notching up a total of 5362 volunteer hours in Chesterfield Canal Trust's last financial year.  That is a lot of volunteers putting a lot of effort into making the canal a better place - rightful employment for a workboat!

Now Pete has gone on to be a huge help to us with Delhi and although we are very aware there are only a few bits of the boat are original we want to ensure our custodianship of those bits not going to be looked down on my future custodians and thanks to Pete's help in getting the basic facts of the history of the boat together we can make sure this is done.

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On 31/12/2019 at 13:35, Heartland said:

It is not only the name that is the issue it is the Registered at Birmingham, which is another.

 

As built for the LMS for the railway interchange traffic, this craft DELHI was registered, as Pete Harrison states, by the Birmingham Canal Navigations as 1606, but the wording suggests that it was Birmingham Corporation Sanitary registration, of course 1606 in that list was FRANCE, a Fellows, Morton & Clayton boat. For DELHI, there was was no need to register it in the Sanitary List. So DELHI was gauged at Tipton with that number and should have a BCN gauging plate.

 

For the owner of the vessel it remains their decision to name the craft as they wish, but if there is any interest in historical accuracy, may be a different signage should be used. But then in the converted state, it is, there is little resemblance to what it looked like as built and so it os perhaps best to leave the craft as it is, at least until the next sale.

Ah!

 

Can I check I have understood this correctly? It should state "Registered at Tipton" rather than "Registered at Birmingham"?

 

I know she would have had a BCN plate once upon a time. It is a shame we don't have that.

 

If anyone else want's to point out any other inacuracies we can iron out when she is painted please do so.

 

I have yet to sift through all the research on paint shades to make sure we have the right colours there too.

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3 hours ago, cheshire~rose said:

Ah!

 

Can I check I have understood this correctly? It should state "Registered at Tipton" rather than "Registered at Birmingham"?

 

I know she would have had a BCN plate once upon a time. It is a shame we don't have that

<snip>.

I think what Heartland means is that as a day boat she would not have had a "sanitary" registration and "Registered at Birmingham" or anywhere is not appropriate.

B.C.N. 1606 should be on a cast plate (with variously shaped corners depending on when it was gauged) allowing toll clerks to identify the boat in their gauging tables.

 

springy

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Well, only boats registered by the Birmingham Corporation sanitary department can have the legend registered in Birmingham and likewise any other sanitary registration area, like Wolverhampton, has requirement for that number to be displayed. The BCN gauging was different and gauging was a process to aid the checking of weight carried, unlike the sanitary authority which was concerned with living accommodation, There was no Tipton registration, in this respect, although all local authorities had the powers to inspect craft.

 

To quote a gauging number, or even a BW/CRT number, as some boats do, is not historically accurate. 

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20 minutes ago, springy said:

I think what Heartland means is that as a day boat she would not have had a "sanitary" registration and "Registered at Birmingham" or anywhere is not appropriate.

B.C.N. 1606 should be on a cast plate (with variously shaped corners depending on when it was gauged) allowing toll clerks to identify the boat in their gauging tables.

 

springy

 

You could at leat paint a BCN plate number 1606 on the boat. And I seem to recall there is (or was) a member on here who casts replica BCN plates.

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2 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

You could at leat paint a BCN plate number 1606 on the boat. And I seem to recall there is (or was) a member on here who casts replica BCN plates.

I think I heard that someone was making them - although it seems I would need to find out the correct shape etc!

 

We are considering having the current BW number painted on somewhere so she complies with current rules. We have seen the licence checker people faithfully typing that 1606 number into their tablet so I suspect any record CRT may have on our travels may be a little inaccurate ?

 

Thanks for all the input, I know sometimes trying to edumacate me can be a little like pulling teeth so I do appreciate folks spelling things out a bit so we stand a chance of not getting it wrong this time

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9 hours ago, cheshire~rose said:

I have yet to sift through all the research on paint shades to make sure we have the right colours there too.

When you talk of paint shades are you thinking of those used by the L.M.S.R. ? If you are you might not like the following.

 

DELHI was built as a cabinless open day boat so had no colours, apart from a black hull with the top bends in white / lettered in black. As mentioned previously (in other threads) six of these boats were fitted with cabins and were health registered at Wolverhampton as family boats, operating on the Staffs and Worcs Canal.

 

Over the past thirty years or so it has become popular to paint the surviving Yarwood built L.M.S.R. 'Station Boats' in the colours of this company's railway rolling stock, but I have seen no evidence that their boats ever carried these colours. In fact to the contrary there is evidence that the older wooden cabin boats operated by the L.M.S.R. carried a livery heavily influenced by that of the boats former owner, predominantly black and white of the S.U.R.C.Co. - and it is my opinion that the six Yarwood 'Station Boats' with cabins would have been painted in a similar fashion. Of course it is impossible to be certain until a good colour photograph turns up, and of course it is your boat so you should paint it however you like.

 

I appreciate my credibility is at an all time low at present so feel free to ignore my thoughts ☹️

 

 

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1 hour ago, pete harrison said:

(snipped)

I appreciate my credibility is at an all time low at present so feel free to ignore my thoughts

 

 

 Absolute nonsense! If EDGEWARE, GLAXY, and ANTARTIC are acceptable, and if there is a link to DELHI also being spelt DEHLI at some point in history, then there is no reason why either spelling cannot be acceptable. Whose boat is it anyway.

 

Colour - well, as many will know the LMS railway colours, then again, it most likely would be more 'acceptable' for folk to naturally (though incorrectly) presume LMS Station boats to be crimson, and more likely to look surprised if they saw black and white! Ultimately, if historic accuracy is being sought - DEHLI should be a cabinless boat! - A black open hull!! (In essence). Purists - they go too far.

 

It's a smart boat in Crimson, and a nice advert for the LMS.

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On 30/12/2019 at 17:29, Murflynn said:

honesty becomes you like a garland of roses.   not many would fess up in that way.    :cheers:

 

 

On 30/12/2019 at 22:25, mark99 said:

 

Any genuine "error" just adds to the rich history.  ;)

 

 

 

9 hours ago, pete harrison said:

When you talk of paint shades are you thinking of those used by the L.M.S.R. ? If you are you might not like the following.

 

DELHI was built as a cabinless open day boat so had no colours, apart from a black hull with the top bends in white / lettered in black. As mentioned previously (in other threads) six of these boats were fitted with cabins and were health registered at Wolverhampton as family boats, operating on the Staffs and Worcs Canal.

 

Over the past thirty years or so it has become popular to paint the surviving Yarwood built L.M.S.R. 'Station Boats' in the colours of this company's railway rolling stock, but I have seen no evidence that their boats ever carried these colours. In fact to the contrary there is evidence that the older wooden cabin boats operated by the L.M.S.R. carried a livery heavily influenced by that of the boats former owner, predominantly black and white of the S.U.R.C.Co. - and it is my opinion that the six Yarwood 'Station Boats' with cabins would have been painted in a similar fashion. Of course it is impossible to be certain until a good colour photograph turns up, and of course it is your boat so you should paint it however you like.

 

I appreciate my credibility is at an all time low at present so feel free to ignore my thoughts ☹️

 

 

Firstly can I just highlight the sentence in red point out the number of positive reactions to your confession? A couple of which are quoted above and others lie in the greenies etc on the post.

 

Please stop beating yourself up for being human! there are a few on this forum who think they are perfect but the rest of us know they are wrong and most of us can only aspire to come somewhere close to the level and depth of research you do to ensure the history of old boats is as complete as it can be and more importantly, as correct as it can be. You have helped a lot of people get a better understanding of the history of their boat and the part it played in the rich tapestry of waterways heritage. One little typo is NOT the end of the world although I can imagine it must feel that way when it is the topic of conversation at the moment.

 

On the topic of paint, well, isn't that just another entire can of worms you have opened there Pete? ?

I have done a brief serach and can't find an image of the S.U.R.C.Co livery and our copy of "Colours of the cut" is still in one of the many boxes labelled "books" that have not been opened since we moved house!

 

We bought Delhi because we loved the way she looked and we think the paint scheme she has suits her. We regularly get people telling us what a beautiful boat she is even though the paintwork in it's current state leaves a great deal to be desired. We were also very aware that as boat in it's current form bears very little resemblence to what it would have been in 1930 we do have a fairly wide reign of artistic licence we can use to ensure the boat looks good and gives a nod to it's original heritage without upsetting any purists too much.   If there are historical inaccuracies such as the registration we now have the opportunity to put that right and doing some research now will help us to ensure there are not details that give the wrong information.

 

Delhi is a historic boat and one of the things we want to do with her is to attend festivals when the opportunity allows BUT we want to ensure that when the public see her they do not assume that she is some genuine recreation of the original 1930's Delhi when nothing could be further from the truth. Most historic boats are a bit of a trigger's broom but I think one of the important things to remember is that as far as the Register of Historic Ships is concerned a boat must be more than 50 years old to be considered historic. Of course there are bits of Delhi that are significantly older than that but the conversion that British Waterways did to her is now more than 50 years old and so based on her second "life" as a leisure boat with an engine and a full cabin she is much closer now to what she was then. What many people still fail to realise is that when boats are no longer useful for the purpose they were built for one of two things happens - they either get converted to a new use or they get scrapped. It is thanks to so many boats having been converted for leisure use that we still have them today. Of course people can de-convert them but with a plethora of historic craft on the market with an open hold and the only accommodation being a trad cabin how much value is there in adding more to that list when people are spending huge sums of money on "replica" boats with a full cabin?

 

We had a think about the BCN plaque and realised that even if we had one cast the place(s) it might have been on the original boat are now not visible so there is no point in having a plaque and hiding it! We will probably get something signwritten but we need to decide upon where that will go.

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