What's in a Name (or the spelling of one)

[cheshire~rose]

When I first saw the advert for Dehli the incorrect spelling of the name stuck out like a sore thumb to me but I have to admit that I don't even see it any more.

 

 

When we were trying to work out why it might be spelt that way some research showed that the city in India was previously spelt Dehli in pre- colonial times. As Delhi was built in 1930 that would not explain the spelling on the side and as it was originally named Delhi by Yarwoods it was a mystery and so we just put it down to being a typo that we can get corrected when the boat is painted next year.

 

Then we saw this article:

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/1495279/Historians-seek-to-give-Dehli-back-its-name.html?fbclid=IwAR1cTpByuUiHMe5m_-w-vQ8Hebvs12MPwyAWCJjEW0vPCVzTABj46ziDCFQ

 

So, perhaps whoever caused the spelling mistake on the side of the boat was a visionary rather than being a bit careless with the proof reading?

 

The question is do we change the spelling or not? ??

[magnetman]

Isn't there a bit of a history with boat names being spelled wrong? 

 

Bilster rather than Bilston is one which comes to my mind for some reason. A GU town class boat.

Pretty sure there were others and it seems likely it was a literacy thing with ether the signwriter themselves or the person instructing them. 

 

May not be the same with Dehli but if it's long established it seems better to leave it. 

 

 

[cheshire~rose]

The spelling of the name this way is only as old as the signwriting on the boat. We believe we know how it came to be spelled that way, it was a typo and it wasn't the signwriter that was responsible, just a sequence of unfortunate timing surrounding the painting of the boat and the reliance on some information that did contain a typo. 

The previous owner and the person responsible for the typo will both be happy to see it change. 

[Sea Dog]

I was gonna suggest changing it to "Calcutta", but then realised that there's more versions of that too, it may even start with a 'K' and, the clincher, it would cost a whole heap more!

 

[Grebe]

Leave it as it is.  The script is nicely balanced.  It may create a talking point for passers by, not that you need an excuse to chat.

 

You are on a Canal of many name changes.  Shaw Lock used to be Shore Lock etc.

[TheBiscuits]

2 hours ago, cheshire~rose said:

Then we saw this article:

 

From the article:

 

Quote

Plans to rename Dehli might seem slightly far-fetched, not to mention expensive

[tree monkey]

1 hour ago, Grebe said:

Leave it as it is.  The script is nicely balanced.  It may create a talking point for passers by, not that you need an excuse to chat.

 

You are on a Canal of many name changes.  Shaw Lock used to be Shore Lock etc.

? 

[Murflynn]

How can Delhi be 'right' or 'wrong'.   

 

English spellings were unknown until the use of English became universal in India as one of the official national languages on the instruction of the ruling Britsh Raj; previously all place names would have been written in one of the many local languages.  The English spelling is simply a phonetic copy of the way the name sounds when spoken by a local.  Hindi and other languages do not have symbols that directly match the letters we use.

 

I lived in New Delhi (which is the name for the relatively recent extension of the old city, designed by Lutyens) for 4 years and the locals called it Delly.  Dehli suggests a longer vowel sound like Dayli, which is not the way I ever heard it said.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Murflynn

[GilesMorris]

7 hours ago, magnetman said:

Isn't there a bit of a history with boat names being spelled wrong? 

 

Bilster rather than Bilston is one which comes to my mind for some reason. A GU town class boat.

Pretty sure there were others and it seems likely it was a literacy thing with ether the signwriter themselves or the person instructing them. 

 

May not be the same with Dehli but if it's long established it seems better to leave it. 

 

 

Cressy or Crecy? Perhaps the name just is what it is.

[cheshire~rose]

11 hours ago, Grebe said:

Leave it as it is.  The script is nicely balanced.  It may create a talking point for passers by, not that you need an excuse to chat.

 

You are on a Canal of many name changes.  Shaw Lock used to be Shore Lock etc.

It is a boat that has had many name changes - Originally built as Delhi (named after the railway station) then converted to a hire boat by BWB and named Water Viper. Then into private ownership and named Charienne. The previous owner wanted to return it to it's original name but things got a bit mixed up when he was relying on some incorrect information.

 

The Chesterfield Canal used to have a name for every bridge and every pond as well as every lock. Most of the bridge names were lost when maps were first drawn up for cruisng and bridge numbers became a thing. Local boaters will still refer to a bridge by a name and that name will never appear in any guide, map or on the bridge itself.

Names still do change too - there are an increasing number of boaters in our boat club who refer to one bridge as "No Chimney" bridge ?

9 hours ago, tree monkey said:

?

Behave!

[cheshire~rose]

12 hours ago, Murflynn said:

How can Delhi be 'right' or 'wrong'.   

 

English spellings were unknown until the use of English became universal in India as one of the official national languages on the instruction of the ruling Britsh Raj; previously all place names would have been written in one of the many local languages.  The English spelling is simply a phonetic copy of the way the name sounds when spoken by a local.  Hindi and other languages do not have symbols that directly match the letters we use.

 

I lived in New Delhi (which is the name for the relatively recent extension of the old city, designed by Lutyens) for 4 years and the locals called it Delly.  Dehli suggests a longer vowel sound like Dayli, which is not the way I ever heard it said.

It can be right or wrong according to what the currently accepted right or wrong spelling happens to be. Languages evolve and Delhi has been the accepted correct spelling for the place for a very long time. It certainly predates the building and naming of the boat in 1930.

 

One of the things I love about India (and in fact other countries in the world) is that with so many different languages being spoken across the country and the majority of them not using our Latin alphabet there will always be some variation when translating to English using the phonemes of the original language. That is why there are so many variations in the spelling of words on an Indian restaurant menu.

 

Thank you for sending me off on a tangent with that post though, I stumbled upon this article which I found very interesting:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/culture/story/20150619-how-india-changed-english

Edited December 29, 2019 by cheshire~rose
to spell Delhi correctly and stop everyone posting to point out my mistake

[Murflynn]

3 hours ago, cheshire~rose said:

 Dehli has been the accepted correct spelling for the place for a very long time.

I think you meant to write Delhi. 

Dehli is not the accepted spelling of the place name when written in western script, witnessed by the fact that Delhi is universally used in India in all official fields. 

I should know - I lived there 1994 to 1998 and 2007 to 2008.

If you google Dehli the search defaults to Delhi. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Murflynn

[cheshire~rose]

9 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

I think you meant to write Delhi. 

Dehli is not the accepted spelling of the place name when written in western script, witnessed by the fact that it is universally used in India in all official fields. 

I should know - I lived there 1994 to 1998 and 2007 to 2008.

If you google Dehli the search defaults to Delhi. 

Yes I did mean to type Delhi sorry for the confusion.

[Athy]

I wonder if Dehli was signwritten by the same person who lettered the historic boat 'Antartic'.

[The Dreamer]

Not quite spelling, but we named our boat after a line from, what we believed to be, a Carpenters song.  We discovered, after having it written, that they had covered the song and the original version was by the Muppets! 

[cheshire~rose]

19 minutes ago, Athy said:

I wonder if Dehli was signwritten by the same person who lettered the historic boat 'Antartic'.

No it wasn't (at least I suspect not) and the signwriter was not at fault

[Athy]

15 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

No it wasn't (at least I suspect not) and the signwriter was not at fault

I was joking, Jan!

[cheshire~rose]

1 minute ago, Athy said:

I was joking, Jan!

Yes I guessed so but I know there are people who are more than a bit red faced about it and those people may be reading so I am being very careful not to apportion any blame. What occurred did so due to a particular string of coincidences at just the right time, everyone involved with spelling the name that way did so in the belief it was correct and indeed at a very tiny window in the timeline there was valid information available to suggest it might be correct.

[magpie patrick]

2 hours ago, cheshire~rose said:

It can be right or wrong according to what the currently accepted right or wrong spelling happens to be. Languages evolve and Dehli has been the accepted correct spelling for the place for a very long time. It certainly predates the building and naming of the boat in 1930.

Except that it appears the city is spelt Delhi! 

[cheshire~rose]

2 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Except that it appears the city is spelt Delhi! 

As was pointed out in post 12 and accpted by me in post 13 - I have now gone back and edited my post to save anyone else pointing out the error but thank you for helping me understand just how the person who made an error that ended up with the error being transposed to the side of our boat must feel ?

[Murflynn]

42 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Except that it appears the city is spelt Delhi! 

corrected  

[Murflynn]

wouldn't it be nice if all current spellings were to be reviewed and where necessary replaced with phonetic spellings, like what Ataturk did when he abolished the use of Arabic script in Turkey.

 

we would have to accept tonite, culler, Delly, Chumley, Edinbrer, Lincun, Redding, .....    etc. etc.

 

thought would be thort

bough would be bow, but better to abolish the meaning and call it branch.

bow could be bow or boe depending on the meaning

throw is just fine

through would be throo

enough would be enuff

though would be thoe

trough would be troff

etc. etc. 

 

how about we make a start on Jan 1st ?

 

[Athy]

5 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

 

 

how about we make a start on Jan 1st ?

 

Perhaps you could make a start and show everyone how it's done?

From memory there are eight ways of pronouncing "ough" in English - most confusing for people learning the language.

[Murflynn]

let's use it as our own rationalised English - with Daniel's blessing it could be the only approved CWDF minority language, as opposed to .....................................

 

.....................  nuff sed.    

[magpie patrick]

11 hours ago, cheshire~rose said:

It is a boat that has had many name changes - Originally built as Delhi (named after the railway station) then converted to a hire boat by BWB and named Water Viper. Then into private ownership and named Charienne. The previous owner wanted to return it to it's original name but things got a bit mixed up when he was relying on some incorrect information.

 

The Chesterfield Canal used to have a name for every bridge and every pond as well as every lock. Most of the bridge names were lost when maps were first drawn up for cruisng and bridge numbers became a thing. Local boaters will still refer to a bridge by a name and that name will never appear in any guide, map or on the bridge itself.

Names still do change too - there are an increasing number of boaters in our boat club who refer to one bridge as "No Chimney" bridge ?

 

On the second half of this, local names fascinate me. They are so ingrained for those that know and a mystery to those that don't. As I leave Marple in the car I pass through the lights at Seventeen Windows, I doubt anyone not local has a clue where it is. In Frome Wesley Slope describes a very specific location that isn't on any map.

 

Back to your boat, to me a boat has only two names, the original one and the one it has now. I never did work out Lutine's original one so she was stuck with Lutine Belle. I'd probably go with the original for Delhi, it is the historic one and not too dissimilar to the current one!