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That 3 cylinder Perkins in Baldock


Richard Carter

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3 hours ago, pete harrison said:

I have enjoyed following this thread and I do not think it is anywhere near running out of steam. I do have a note in my records (from Mary Matts ?) that the Perkins in BALDOCK was derived from an F3 tractor engine.

 

What happened to the iron B.C.N. day boat featured in the photographs above with BALDOCK :captain: 

It is of course entirely possible that an invoice from Duffields gave more details which I never saw - would have saved me a good deal of head-scratching! But then why would Duffields have supplied the alternative water-cooled exhaust manifold for us to try if they knew it wouldn't fit the Ford cylinder head? You mentioned propeller match, we were lucky with that re-engining, as Baldock had always felt a bit underpowered with the twin Armstrong (but OK with an empty butty camping, esp. across the Leicester Summit where a big engine and prop were neither use nor ornament), but the Perkins with the same prop went really well. I'd not realised so many Perkins of that sort had found their way into narrowboats then.

 

I have no idea what happened to the B.C.N. boat, sorry - 1987 was my last season at Foxton and I don't recall anything being done with it before I left in November. FBS had also bought the BW working flat moored just ahead of us on the second photo (Braunston top lock), we towed them together back to Foxton which was quite fun. The Joey was a pig to tow on its own, it had no rudder and slewed to one side the whole time, but with the flat between it followed like a lamb.

 

Baldock, BW flat & Joey 1987.jpg

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3 hours ago, magnetman said:

It seems to be a bit shorter which is odd. Maybe just the angle.

I see what you mean, but I think it's an illusion - we must have been getting set to move off (hence efforts to cajole the last Afghan back on board), there's only a not-very-tight centre rope between motor and day boat, and the motor has drifted forwards.

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 I don't believe the D3 has the preheater on the air intake or vertical injectors.  That air intake bowl is the same as on my P4.

However the rocker cover is different from the P3. 

 

So it seems likely it is the F3.144 joint product.

 

I find it odd that Chris Bennet would have called it a D3.152 if it wasn't one though. The D3 is direct injection with angled injectors as mentioned previously. This clearly has vertical injectors and a preheated intake which indicates indirect injection. 

 

 

Interesting that it has a hand start arrangement so it must have decompressors or some other way to reduce the compression. 

 

The red lever at the end is a decompressor that's why the rocker cover is a funny shape. 

 

 

ETA this engine in another boat is described as a P3.144. this type of hand starting must mean it's an engine built for marine use. It's looks exactly the same as the one in Baldock. When I looked at Baldock in the early 00s at Highline in Iver it had that engine in it and was advertised as a P3. 

 

 

Screenshot20191231092522799comandroid157

 

 

The old listing here 

https://yorkshire.boatshed.com/wooden__launch-boat-127167.html

From the look of the boat and engine I suspect they do know that it IS a P3.144. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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9 hours ago, chris_r said:

Here is the present engine in Baldock if it helps to clarify whether it is a D, P or F series

 

This is fascinating - thanks, Chris. I have stared/am staring long and hard at both engine photos. What neither shows well enough is the injector pump (below the exhaust manifold), which if I am right, would offer some clarity. Indirect injection is certainly confirmed, the injector spill rails are not the same, but that may be a trivial point. I remember making the throttle linkage (lhs, parallel to the lagged exhaust pipe) - Baldock had obviously lost its speedwheel before FBS acquired it, there was a Lister throttle lever on a quadrant with a ratchet, and the brass rod linkage which I modified for the Perkins. magnetman's point about the raised hand start is good, Tony M would certainly have specified one, and of course Duffields would have had all the marinising parts to hand - the lifting eyes, flywheel housing with gearbox adapter plate etc were also different or not necessary on a tractor. The marine exhaust manifold, and therefore the injector pipes, which have to find their way around it, are different from what you see on the Dexta videos. I remember they fabricated extra-long mounting feet to reach the engine beds.

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I should be sitting down for a meal this evening with Chris.

 

If I can actually manage to remember (!) I'll ask him what he knows about the engine.

The one in the picture has a visibly very different rocker cover from what was on the P3.144 in a boat I owned in the 1970s, but I don't recall that having any option to decompress it.  (Mind you it is now a very long while ago!)

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20141013_154357.jpg

 

 

Screenshot20191231092522799comandroid157

 

Easier to see like that :)

 

yes the return/leak off rail is very different. I originally thought that was just a BS scheme addition but it looks original apart from the yellow 7840 hose obviously. 

 

pretty sure my P4 has the leak off pipes low down like in the second picture. 

 

another thing is where is the starter motor? I have seen a P3 with the starter located centrally above the bellhousing rather than the more normal position down to the side. 

 

it looks like both of the above are in the more usual position ie down to the starboard side. 

 

my P4 has the starter on the opposite side but it is not a marine version. 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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9 hours ago, magnetman said:

Easier to see like that :)

 

yes the return/leak off rail is very different. I originally thought that was just a BS scheme addition but it looks original apart from the yellow 7840 hose obviously. 

 

pretty sure my P4 has the leak off pipes low down like in the second picture. 

 

Every Dexta F3 video I've checked on YouTube has the high-level spill rail like Baldock's,

but a marine P3 featured here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW8gSva35B4

Perkins P3 Marine Engine with Parsons 2:1 gearbox

has the low level version as on the Yorkshire boatshed.

 

But I still wouldn't go as far as to call that proof ...

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Don't shoot the messenger, but....

 

Chrs Bennett tells me the engine is still the one fitted by Foxton Boat, althogh the gearbox is not.

 

It was positively identified by him against original records using its serial number.

 

It is a D3.152, but apparently unlike most D3s it's a full marine engine, of which very few were ever supplied.

 

Despite the discussions here, I'm pretty certain he said it is direct injection.

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1 hour ago, Tonka said:

If the engine was based on a Ford engine as used on Dextor Tractor units then surely it cant be far away from a Beta BD3 unit which was Ford based and used on tractors

Lister CRK3 was a ford 3 pot as well I think. 

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6 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Lister CRK3 was a ford 3 pot as well I think. 

Yes, same as the Beta BD3 which I have been told was actually made by Perkins under licence so not the same as the Perkins 3 cylinder. I don't know how true that last bit is.

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When we took over Baldock , I had the engine numbers verified by Perkins and Diperk and they both agreed it is a D3.152

The gearbox I was informe had been changed prior to our time 

All I/We did wsa top end overhaul along with having the fuel pump and injectors reconditioned by a local firm

I do hope that wherever BALDOCK ends up she will retrain that setup as it nicely balances the boat 

 

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On 03/01/2020 at 15:20, Chris-B said:

When we took over Baldock , I had the engine numbers verified by Perkins and Diperk and they both agreed it is a D3.152

The gearbox I was informe had been changed prior to our time 

All I/We did wsa top end overhaul along with having the fuel pump and injectors reconditioned by a local firm

I do hope that wherever BALDOCK ends up she will retrain that setup as it nicely balances the boat 

 

Interesting - and mighty confusing! This ought to be conclusive, and yet ... the photo of Baldock's engine room kindly posted by chris_r a few days ago so clearly shows an engine with indirect injection (vertically mounted injectors, and the combustion chamber cover plates are visible on the side of the head) - and it is the engine I installed back in the day - and the D in D3.152 stands for direct injection:

 

407073198_Perkinsenginetypesextract.png.69e4178262e272e1002a57f2feb0b9e3.png

 

The D3.152 was the basis of the 3HD46 marine engine, there were quite a few installed in the UCC hire fleet during my time there.

 

Don't know about Baldock's present gearbox, it doesn't quite show on the photo. I wrote above that a PRM260 was originally fitted but I'm now doubting my memory on this point. My earliest diary entry on the subject says that a PRM310 was in the package offered by Duffields, but according to the Newage website that model was discontinued in 1984. All I really know is that it was the "next size up" from the PRM160, which was the gearbox everyone else was happy with ...

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21 hours ago, Richard Carter said:

Interesting - and mighty confusing! This ought to be conclusive, and yet ... the photo of Baldock's engine room kindly posted by chris_r a few days ago so clearly shows an engine with indirect injection (vertically mounted injectors, and the combustion chamber cover plates are visible on the side of the head) - and it is the engine I installed back in the day - and the D in D3.152 stands for direct injection:

 

407073198_Perkinsenginetypesextract.png.69e4178262e272e1002a57f2feb0b9e3.png

 

The D3.152 was the basis of the 3HD46 marine engine, there were quite a few installed in the UCC hire fleet during my time there.

 

Don't know about Baldock's present gearbox, it doesn't quite show on the photo. I wrote above that a PRM260 was originally fitted but I'm now doubting my memory on this point. My earliest diary entry on the subject says that a PRM310 was in the package offered by Duffields, but according to the Newage website that model was discontinued in 1984. All I really know is that it was the "next size up" from the PRM160, which was the gearbox everyone else was happy with ...

 

I suppose the obvious question here is "where was the serial number plate attached ?"

 

Is it possible that the bit with the serial number on it (block?)  was from a D3 but the engine ended up being built as a P3, or an F3 ? 

 

From previous info in this thread it seems to me to be a Perkins P3 with Perkins/Ford F3 injectors. 

 

Maybe it should be called a PDF3?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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Our first colecraft canal cruiser had a d3 152 in it. This was in 1980 so memory blurs.

It had some kind of seagoing instal with a jabsco pump running raw in from the weed hatch , and straight out through water cooled exhaust, and a prm gearbox.

i assume a reclaimed tractor engine.

for some inexplicable reason it had a pancake filter mounted vertically under a flat deck, the inevitable happened and it took water in while the deck was being washed.

I had a big problem getting a new valve and gasket because , everyone assumed it was a p3. ( there were no  visible engine numbers on it ) 

The boat had a great party trick for the aggressive anglers of the lower grand union, it was very overcooled having been built for the trent, and a throttle blip would send a blast of water 6 feet sideways through the exhaust. Given they used to sit almost in the locks the result was inevitable. For some reason exiting locks was always done under  big power with the outlet on the towpath side.
 


 

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2 hours ago, magnetman said:

 

I suppose the obvious question here is "where was the serial number plate attached ?"

 

Is it possible that the bit with the serial number on it (block?)  was from a D3 but the engine ended up being built as a P3, or an F3 ? 

 

From previous info in this thread it seems to me to be a Perkins P3 with Perkins/Ford F3 injectors. 

 

Maybe it should be called a PDF3?

 

Tissh! Booom! I think you've cracked it here ?

 

I've been wondering about all this again - the injector pump certainly says (or said) F3, a model which had been out of production for 20 years when the engine was supplied to FBS. It had been at the Duffields training school, we were told - had it been in use all that time, or latterly gathering dust in a storeroom? How much undocumented substitution of parts might have been going on? Was it only marinised in 1985 for FBS, or had it already been done at some earlier date and was only modified then (wider engine feet, different gearbox). It was certainly not in "new" condition, as  I mentioned before, it was weeping oil from most gaskets, and we had to get a leaky injector sorted.

 

 

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