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Will new bill save red diesel?

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

My guess is that pretty much all expenditure on Petrol is 'discretionary', whilst Diesel (Red) is rebated to 11p (from 58p) its is for 'commercial use' (Agriculture, Construction, commercial boats etc etc) and 'leisure boating' has slipped in 'under the radar' until is was picked up by the EU and full duty was applied for propulsion use whilst retaining the rebated price for 'domestic use' (the same as Kerosene for domestic use in 'houses')

 

Petrol, on the other hand is very little used in 'commercial applications' (only one that springs to mind is petrol 'angle grinders') and use on leisure boats, generators, etc is charged at full duty the same as diesel.

 

Successive Governments have probably considered that the introduction of new legislation to allow for the use of 'odd 1000' litres of rebated petrol is not worthwhile.

 

We should be grateful for having had 50+ years of cheap diesel which we were not entitled to, rather than moaning 'not fair' when the law is finally applied

 

Just flipping open a page in my log

On 22/7/01 I topped up the tanks in Holyhead and put in 239 litres @ 29p/litre.

On 26/7/01 I topped up in Troon (Scotland) with 400 litres at 21p/litre,

On 30/7/01 topped up at Rhu with  450 litres at 21.5p/litre

 

Paying £1 / litre just 8 years later makes a big difference, it is out choice to 'boat' so we have to pay for our choices.

^^^^^^ Exactly this! I converted my boat to electric drive for 3 reasons Emissions, cost of diesel both now and in the future and noise! Now the bi product of having all the solar for the electric drive is even in winter I just have enough solar to make my domestic electricity, in the summer I use the excess for immersion heater to produce  hot water.

I also get a 25% rebate on my license which is a sweetner for me.

My batteries all 36 of them are LifeMgPo4s these charge far faster than any normal battery making use of any energy available.

I am after the holiday installing my 600 watt VAWT in the hope of cutting out use of the whispergen except in dire emergencies.

I still use Anthracite for the Rayburn and Kerosine for the bubble stove and whispergen, it is cleaner that diesel whatever the naysayers say and is cheaper to boot. I also use as much wood as I can get given for free, normally over a ton a year, I would say that my boat is cheaper and cleaner than the equivalent sized boat that hadnt taken my measures to clean up their act

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Paying £1 / litre just 18 years later makes a big difference, it is our choice to 'boat' so we have to pay for our choices.

Corrected that for you ;)

 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

My guess is that pretty much all expenditure on Petrol is 'discretionary', whilst Diesel (Red) is rebated to 11p (from 58p) it is for 'commercial use' (Agriculture, Construction, commercial boats etc etc) and 'leisure boating' has slipped in 'under the radar' until is was picked up by the EU and full duty was applied for propulsion use, whilst retaining the rebated price for 'domestic use' (the same as Kerosene for domestic use in 'houses')

 

Petrol, on the other hand is very little used in 'commercial applications' (only one that springs to mind is petrol 'angle grinders') and use on leisure boats, generators, etc is charged at full duty the same as diesel.

 

Successive Governments have probably considered that the introduction of new legislation to allow for the use of 'odd 1000' litres of rebated petrol is not worthwhile.

 

We should be grateful for having had 50+ years of cheap diesel to which we were not entitled, rather than moaning 'not fair' when the law is finally applied

 

Just flipping open a page in my log

On 22/7/01 I topped up the tanks in Holyhead and put in 239 litres @ 29p/litre.

On 26/7/01 I topped up in Troon (Scotland) with 400 litres at 21p/litre,

On 30/7/01 topped up at Rhu with  450 litres at 21.5p/litre

 

Paying £1 / litre just 8 years later makes a big difference, it is our choice to 'boat' so we have to pay for our choices.

29 pence a litre!! What a scam. We were paying 50 pence a gallon when we first moved aboard. 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

My guess is that pretty much all expenditure on Petrol is 'discretionary', whilst Diesel (Red) is rebated to 11p (from 58p) it is for 'commercial use' (Agriculture, Construction, commercial boats etc etc) and 'leisure boating' has slipped in 'under the radar' until is was picked up by the EU and full duty was applied for propulsion use, whilst retaining the rebated price for 'domestic use' (the same as Kerosene for domestic use in 'houses')

 

Petrol, on the other hand is very little used in 'commercial applications' (only one that springs to mind is petrol 'angle grinders') and use on leisure boats, generators, etc is charged at full duty the same as diesel.

 

Successive Governments have probably considered that the introduction of new legislation to allow for the use of 'odd 1000' litres of rebated petrol is not worthwhile.

 

We should be grateful for having had 50+ years of cheap diesel to which we were not entitled, rather than moaning 'not fair' when the law is finally applied

 

Just flipping open a page in my log

On 22/7/01 I topped up the tanks in Holyhead and put in 239 litres @ 29p/litre.

On 26/7/01 I topped up in Troon (Scotland) with 400 litres at 21p/litre,

On 30/7/01 topped up at Rhu with  450 litres at 21.5p/litre

 

Paying £1 / litre just 8 years later makes a big difference, it is our choice to 'boat' so we have to pay for our choices.

Chainsaws and small horticultural machines,  including some small chippers

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

My guess is that pretty much all expenditure on Petrol is 'discretionary', whilst Diesel (Red) is rebated to 11p (from 58p) it is for 'commercial use' (Agriculture, Construction, commercial boats etc etc) and 'leisure boating' has slipped in 'under the radar' until is was picked up by the EU and full duty was applied for propulsion use, whilst retaining the rebated price for 'domestic use' (the same as Kerosene for domestic use in 'houses')

 

Petrol, on the other hand is very little used in 'commercial applications' (only one that springs to mind is petrol 'angle grinders') and use on leisure boats, generators, etc is charged at full duty the same as diesel.

 

Successive Governments have probably considered that the introduction of new legislation to allow for the use of 'odd 1000' litres of rebated petrol is not worthwhile.

 

We should be grateful for having had 50+ years of cheap diesel to which we were not entitled, rather than moaning 'not fair' when the law is finally applied

 

Just flipping open a page in my log

On 22/7/01 I topped up the tanks in Holyhead and put in 239 litres @ 29p/litre.

On 26/7/01 I topped up in Troon (Scotland) with 400 litres at 21p/litre,

On 30/7/01 topped up at Rhu with  450 litres at 21.5p/litre

 

Paying £1 / litre just 8 years later makes a big difference, it is our choice to 'boat' so we have to pay for our choices.

Commerial: chain saws, lawn mowers for towpaths, water pumps, ?

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

My guess is that pretty much all expenditure on Petrol is 'discretionary', whilst Diesel (Red) is rebated to 11p (from 58p) it is for 'commercial use' (Agriculture, Construction, commercial boats etc etc) and 'leisure boating' has slipped in 'under the radar' until is was picked up by the EU and full duty was applied for propulsion use, whilst retaining the rebated price for 'domestic use' (the same as Kerosene for domestic use in 'houses')

 

 

This is a modern interpretation.  Until recently white diesel was called DERV for a reason.  Diesel Engined ROAD Vehicles.  The tax was only applied to diesel engined vehicles used on roads.  Commercial or leisure use did not enter into the equation until the EU put its oar in.

 

Even now, there is only one use of diesel off road for leisure purposes that is subject to full duty and that is propulsion of a private vessel.  ALL other off road users of diesel for any purpose do not pay full duty rate.

 

Boaters were singled out for special treatment in this matter.  I have banged on about this before and I will continue to do so.  Boaters were not "getting away" with paying low duty in the past, they simply had what every other leisure user of off road diesel had, and still has (except us of course).

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1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

Commerial: chain saws, lawn mowers for towpaths, water pumps, ?

Error did I not just say that?

Ignore the Monkey why don't you ?

 

:);)

Edited by tree monkey

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21 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Commercial or leisure use did not enter into the equation until the EU put its oar in.

Sort of, the difference between 'private' and 'commercial' fuel duty was discussed  in the bill noted below (as was lifeboats and fishing boats) but, canal craft SHOULD have been subject to Duty as is indicated by the fact that (allegedly) Churchill made them exempt in thanks for 'efforts during the war'.

 

I have never seen any documentary evidence of this - heresay !!

 

But, there is this :

New Clause. —(REDUCTION OF DUTY ON DIESEL FUEL FOR PUBLIC SERVICE VEHICLES.)

HC Deb 15 June 1959 vol 607 cc137-76
 
 
 

Several paragraphs later :

 

 

It is true that an exception was made in respect of fishing boats and lifeboats, but these exceptions did not affect road transport. What I am saying is that once we start making exceptions which apply to road transport we begin to get into very great difficulties...............................

 

When we speak of the Hydrocarbon Oil Duty we may be tempted sometimes to think in terms of private motoring,
but of the £355 million which I hope to get from this duty,....................................

 

I would draw the attention of the Committee to the history of the provision upon which the Clause is modelled. It arises from a Clause inserted in the 1928 Finance Bill by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, in reply to a plea from the then Member for North Cornwall—Commander Wiljiams—who asked for special consideration for fishermen.

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3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Petrol, on the other hand is very little used in 'commercial applications' (only one that springs to mind is petrol 'angle grinders') 

Chainsaws

Strimmers

Lawnmowers

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Just flipping open a page in my log

On 22/7/01 I topped up the tanks in Holyhead and put in 239 litres @ 29p/litre.

On 26/7/01 I topped up in Troon (Scotland) with 400 litres at 21p/litre,

 

How much were you paying in 2008? Was it about then that the 60/40 split was introduced and caused a big price jump?

 

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15 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Chainsaws

Strimmers

Lawnmowers

How much were you paying in 2008? Was it about then that the 60/40 split was introduced and caused a big price jump?

 

 

I have mislaid some of my Log books during house moves.

Filling up on the coast meant 'reduced duty' using commercial docks.

Filling up the NB was either reduced duty from my tank at home (agricultural) or filling at whatever rate a canal side operator was charging.

 

I am still paying only around the 49p-50p /litre at home (for the tractors and digger) so there is a fair mark-up (even ignoring the duty) for the canalside sellers.

 

 

Edit : Just checked and it looks like current Gas-Oil is getting towards 60p

 

26/5/16 I topped up with 400 litres at 50p (60/40) at Newark.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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1 hour ago, furnessvale said:

This is a modern interpretation.  Until recently white diesel was called DERV for a reason.  Diesel Engined ROAD Vehicles.  The tax was only applied to diesel engined vehicles used on roads.  Commercial or leisure use did not enter into the equation until the EU put its oar in.

 

Well strictly speaking, there is the Fuel Duty Rebate (now known as the Bus Service Operators Grant), which refunds some of the duty on fuel used for Local Bus Services

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5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Sort of, the difference between 'private' and 'commercial' fuel duty was discussed  in the bill noted below (as was lifeboats and fishing boats) but, canal craft SHOULD have been subject to Duty as is indicated by the fact that (allegedly) Churchill made them exempt in thanks for 'efforts during the war'.

 

I have never seen any documentary evidence of this - heresay !!

 

But, there is this :

New Clause. —(REDUCTION OF DUTY ON DIESEL FUEL FOR PUBLIC SERVICE VEHICLES.)

HC Deb 15 June 1959 vol 607 cc137-76
 
 
 

Several paragraphs later :

 

 

It is true that an exception was made in respect of fishing boats and lifeboats, but these exceptions did not affect road transport. What I am saying is that once we start making exceptions which apply to road transport we begin to get into very great difficulties...............................

 

When we speak of the Hydrocarbon Oil Duty we may be tempted sometimes to think in terms of private motoring,
but of the £355 million which I hope to get from this duty,....................................

 

I would draw the attention of the Committee to the history of the provision upon which the Clause is modelled. It arises from a Clause inserted in the 1928 Finance Bill by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, in reply to a plea from the then Member for North Cornwall—Commander Wiljiams—who asked for special consideration for fishermen.

None of which alters the fact that, until the recent intervention by the EU, the only* users of diesel who were required to pay full duty were motor vehicles on a road.  ALL other users could use rebated fuel.  I am at a loss to see any relevance to fishing boats or lifeboats which have always used rebated fuel like any other vessel.

 

Now, the only users of diesel who are required to pay full duty are motor vehicles.................AND........the propulsion of boats used for leisure.  ALL other users, commercial or leisure, can still use rebated fuel.

 

*The partial rebate for stage carriage omnibuses for social reasons is accepted.

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9 hours ago, furnessvale said:

None of which alters the fact that, until the recent intervention by the EU,

I agree, in principle, but would question the 'recent' comment, we have known for 10 years + that we were non compliant.

 

Under the 1995 Council Directive 95/60/EC "fiscal marking of gas oils", it was a requirement to charge the duty on pleasure craft, the Government of the day negotiated a derogation meaning that we had a 'transition period' to implement it, this was extended a couple of times but eventually expired in 2008. 'We' made an attempt to implement the regulation by introducing the 'diesel split declaration' system but were told by the EU it was non-complaint and after several 'warnings' the EU went to the ECJ and got a ruling in 2018 that we were in breach of the law.

 

It could be argued that at the final expiry of the derogation, if we had re-applied for an extension before the Court made Judgement we may have had one granted, but in view of the 2016 Referendum I think that it would have been refused as the EU wanted to apply their 'muscle' and show us who is 'boss' on any matter they could.

 

I pointed out that Winston Churchill had requested an exemption for Fishing boats, and wondered if that had evolved (the canal boaters 'unwritten rules') to include canal boats as the story tells.

 

 

Government 2019 Boating Diesel Consultation :

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/implementation-of-the-court-of-justice-of-the-european-union-cjeu-judgment-on-diesel-fuel-used-in-private-pleasure-craft

 

https://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/news/Pages/hmrc-consultation-diesel.aspx

Edited by Alan de Enfield
  • Greenie 1

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Lets be honest its a done deal, the Government have emission targets to meet and revenue to collect why would they want to change the rules back? Also if red diesel disappears from marinas it also stops it making its way into road going vehicles which is a fact it does happen

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42 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Lets be honest its a done deal, the Government have emission targets to meet and revenue to collect why would they want to change the rules back? Also if red diesel disappears from marinas it also stops it making its way into road going vehicles which is a fact it does happen

 

The amount of red diesel used by inland boats is miniscule to that used to power agricultural equipment, plant and standby generators, so the amount finding its way into road vehicles is unlikely to change much.

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48 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Also if red diesel disappears from marinas it also stops it making its way into road going vehicles which is a fact it does happen

Red diesel is available at some road fuel stations. If people want to illegally use red diesel they need not involve a marina.

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On 23/12/2019 at 08:28, Dr Bob said:

Still lots of carbon fuel out there for many many years...i.e. Gas. Hundreds of wells drilled every year for oil but only a few percent have commercial quantities of oil. All have gas.

We have to find other ways to generate power. The big energy companies have been looking for 50 years plus with very limited success. For me nuclear is the short term but there has to be a big breakthrough in fission or other tech soon or else we are all doomed. No, on reflection, we are all doomed.

A friend who was an oil consultant working in Russia told me that it is reckoned that Russia and it’s satellite states had more oil than the rest of the world put together, but they are just quietly hanging on to most of until the Arab’s oil runs out, when they will be able to control the world.

 This view might be changing with the advancement of renewables and oil starts to lose its dominance.

 Meanwhile, whilst the Arab world might be losing it oil dominance, it does have a huge amount of sunny desert...

  • Greenie 1

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53 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

The amount of red diesel used by inland boats is miniscule to that used to power agricultural equipment, plant and standby generators, so the amount finding its way into road vehicles is unlikely to change much.

Somebody posted on here that 9/10 ths of the diesel sold went onto the bank at their marina, now how much that is I have no idea but its a lot of lost income for the government, as i said why would you want to keep red available when you dont have to?

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18 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I have mislaid some of my Log books during house moves.

Filling up on the coast meant 'reduced duty' using commercial docks.

Filling up the NB was either reduced duty from my tank at home (agricultural) or filling at whatever rate a canal side operator was charging.

 

I am still paying only around the 49p-50p /litre at home (for the tractors and digger) so there is a fair mark-up (even ignoring the duty) for the canalside sellers.

 

 

Edit : Just checked and it looks like current Gas-Oil is getting towards 60p

 

26/5/16 I topped up with 400 litres at 50p (60/40) at Newark.

Just paid £0.56/litre for a 600 litre lorry load.

  • Happy 2

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18 hours ago, tree monkey said:

Error did I not just say that?

Ignore the Monkey why don't you ?

 

:);)

Posts overlapped as they often do.

  • Greenie 1

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51 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Just paid £0.56/litre for a 600 litre lorry load.

That would be at the domestic rate of duty?

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5 minutes ago, MartynG said:

That would be at the domestic rate of duty?

I guess so. Quoted for delivery to my mooring to go into the heating tank on my boat. Propulsion fuel goes into a different tank.

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3 hours ago, peterboat said:

Lets be honest its a done deal, the Government have ................... revenue to collect why would they want to change the rules back? 

Similar argument for Smellys VAT thing. Red diesel and VAT were the oft repeated reasons we should leave the EU, yet they were actually things that OUR government wont be changing any time soon, or ever.

 

Looks like Jeremy Clarkson is right :( 

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2 hours ago, dor said:

A friend who was an oil consultant working in Russia told me that it is reckoned that Russia and it’s satellite states had more oil than the rest of the world put together, but they are just quietly hanging on to most of until the Arab’s oil runs out, when they will be able to control the world.

 This view might be changing with the advancement of renewables and oil starts to lose its dominance.

 Meanwhile, whilst the Arab world might be losing it oil dominance, it does have a huge amount of sunny desert...

Plastics require oil for their production. Unless consumerism and growth is stopped, nobody is proposing that of course, oil will continue to be king. Perhaps even more so, given dwindling supplies with ever increasing demand.

 

Given the choice of world dominance by Russians or Arabs I would chose the former anytime. While the Ruskies might not be perfect, at least they organise things without civilisation being completely consigned to the dustbin.   

  • Greenie 1

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43 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Similar argument for Smellys VAT thing. Red diesel and VAT were the oft repeated reasons we should leave the EU, yet they were actually things that OUR government wont be changing any time soon, or ever.

 

Looks like Jeremy Clarkson is right :( 

Why should they change it back? May signed us up for the carbon neutral by whenever? so unless that is repealed, we are on the route to that end! The easiest way of achieving it is by taxing carbon based fuels, as a country we are at the forefront of wind turbine tech, water turbines are appearing in weirs near you all the time, tidal power is being investigated, and cheap and clean Hydrogen production is being developed at unis [I think its a dead end] so yes the country one way or another will be cleaning its act up! The quicker the better is what I say, of course other countries wont bother as the EU is discovering so we will still be doomed

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