Jump to content

Sail boat on canal?


kd-shard

Featured Posts

5 hours ago, Ray T said:

141776_BoatPic_Main.jpg

 

Just my humble opinion, why spoil such a beautiful craft?

 

Coming from ex offshore, personally I would refurbish her as a sea boat.

That's surely not the £60 yacht we're discussing here? I'd be very surprised if any £60 quid yacht isn't already spoiled in just about any way we can conceive of and is well beyond being refurbished as a sea boat. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

That's surely not the £60 yacht we're discussing here? I'd be very surprised if any £60 quid yacht isn't already spoiled in just about any way we can conceive of and is well beyond being refurbished as a sea boat. 

No it is not the £60 yacht but a similar craft. Even so beautiful lines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I tend to think back to the Fastnet Race of 1979 when those boats lost their keels they turned turtle, can the OP be certain this boat wont do the same if he cuts the keel off?

 

Without the keel it is going to float much higher in the water. That is going to make is much less stable and while doubtful, it could be that it wants to float heeled over to one side instead of upright since the Center of Gravity has moved drastically higher.  Depends on the hull shape and keel weight.  But I have no doubt it is going to be extremely tender without the keel.

 

At 22' it might work but it really sounds like a bad idea all around. The bigger the boat gets, the more ballast weighs. not the least bit surprised they don't stay upright with all that rigging the air.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

in view that Pandora was available with a centreplate option, it would seem that it doesn't rely on a deep ballast keel for stability.

 

in the fin keel version the ballast keel weighed 980lbs and the overall displacement of the hull was 2500lbs.

 

if the boat floated upright with a raised centreplate (probably with similar weight to the alternative ballast keel) this suggests that if you can hide 980lbs of ballast away below the cabin floor then it should do just fine.

 

the boat was designed by Van de Stadt who was an inspirational racing yacht designer at the time.

Edited by Murflynn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I tend to think back to the Fastnet Race of 1979 when those boats lost their keels they turned turtle, can the OP be certain this boat wont do the same if he cuts the keel off? Any ballast that is put into the bilge will need to be fixed in some way since sailing boats are designed to be able to list and if it does so with unfixed ballast in the bilge, it will just slide across leading to a capsize anyway. I would agree that cutting the keel off doesn't sound like a good idea.

You also need too think about the massive wind force on the sails and mast that is trying to push the boat over without the keel there is much less resistance to that .  The keel is not all about weight either especially any shaped fin or bilge keel.

 

Without the masts and sails (The OP says he won't use them) providing that force the boat will be much more stable but there is also weight in the keel so weight would need to be added to the bilge to stop it being apt to roll about as much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, churchward said:

You also need too think about the massive wind force on the sails and mast that is trying to push the boat over without the keel there is much less resistance to that .  The keel is not all about weight either especially any shaped fin or bilge keel.

 

Without the masts and sails (The OP says he won't use them) providing that force the boat will be much more stable but there is also weight in the keel so weight would need to be added to the bilge to stop it being apt to roll about as much.

As I said, the weights would need to be fixed in the bilges to stop them moving when the boat rolls as someone climbs aboard. The boat in question is only 8 feet longer than my sailing dinghy, and if I step on the gunnels, my boat will list quite severely, enough to displace any loose weights in the bilge. The design weight of the Pandora is only just over a metric tonne If the bilge weights move it will destabilise the boat since the design of the boat is to allow it to lean, unlike a narrow boat which isn't designed to lean, and in the case of mine comes in around 18 tons. I remain to be convinced that cutting the keel off is anything other than a bad idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Round figures, say 1000kg ish boat with 35% ballast as fin keel reaching down over a metre. That will counteract the heeling force from the sails. Get rid of the keel and it goes over in a heartbeat.

 

OP says mast and sails won't be in play so not the same forces but still imagine skittish like hell even with added bilge ballast.The project isn't bonkers just too much time, yard fees, and cash for materials for it to seem to be sensible.  But, we do boats and that doesn't seem sensible to most people.

 

Puttingnginto perspective I have an old 19' yacht, floats, has sails but is not a viable restoration project for the sea. I use it as shed storage near a similar one that is but thought about putting it on the canal. With bilge keels it wouldn't need any mods at just under 2' under the water. But the costs to do it would be loads just in materials.

 

But, simply, if you want a long project, with money lost, for the enjoyment of the work, go for it. I've messed up on more than one cheap old boat project and done good on others over the decades. Don't ask how much a little old grp boat on the canal costs to buy, ask how much it costs to keep in the water and how much time you can commit to it. For me that is £30 and 6+ hrs per week for a scrappy little cruiser that only cost me some labour. But the sanity of nearby ducks and horses, priceless. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This couple were on the Llangollen canal, they had an electric outboard but his wife towed it most of the time, they had been to lots of places on the canals like this, https://nbharnser.blogspot.com/2017/06/hindford-thursday-1-june-2017.html

so  @kd-shard it can be done.

 

[DSCF8091%5B3%5D]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That looks like an Alacrity or similar which are under 2' draft with bilge keels. Hence, I imagine nothing has been removed under the water as it should cope okay. They've probably just taken off the mast and sails. However at 3'9" draft a Pandora's keel is just too deep for the canals and removing it, compensating with ballast etc a major and costly project.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

This couple were on the Llangollen canal, they had an electric outboard but his wife towed it most of the time, they had been to lots of places on the canals like this, https://nbharnser.blogspot.com/2017/06/hindford-thursday-1-june-2017.html

so  @kd-shard it can be done.

 

[DSCF8091%5B3%5D]

I do like this.

Their propulsion method may well be a pointer to the future.ie,electric untill you run out of juice,then a rope around the waist and shanks pony.

I am sure their progress won't be much slower than a ICE powered boat.

 

 

 

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

That looks like an Alacrity or similar which are under 2' draft with bilge keels. Hence, I imagine nothing has been removed under the water as it should cope okay. They've probably just taken off the mast and sails. However at 3'9" draft a Pandora's keel is just too deep for the canals and removing it, compensating with ballast etc a major and costly project.

As its not going to sail again how about just taking 2 foot off and reattach the weights

1 minute ago, Mad Harold said:

I do like this.

Their propulsion method may well be a pointer to the future.ie,electric untill you run out of juice,then a rope around the waist and shanks pony.

I am sure their progress won't be much slower than a ICE powered boat.

 

 

 

He waved me by, I overtook as slow as I could but still I drew him along the canal and the tow rope went slack

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many years ago I fitted out a very simular but slightly longer GRP hull  (23ft 9in) sloop and sailed it, (well pub crawled really), on the Essex, Suffolk coast and Thames Estury so I do know this sort of boat.

I would add that there are plenty of safe little creeks up and down this coast and with a copy of "East Coast Rivers" and a couple of Admiralty charts you can't go far wrong. Even if you did run aground it's all "putty" so you cannot come to much harm. So don't dismiss using it in its natural environment right away.

 

Now this business with the keel, in a canal it would be a hindrance to say the very least. My guess is that the keel is an iron casting and weighs the heavy side of half a ton. Its purpose was/is of course to get the C of G low and to resist leeway but without the top hamper of mast and sails there will be no such wind pressure heeling forces to be counteracted. It is also worth noting that a well designed sailing hull tries as it heels to increase its displacement. This is of course not possible, the weight/displacement of a boat is what it is, instead it imparts a righting moment.

 

If the keel is removed as much of its weight as  possible must be replaced. There is likely to be a fair amount of space under the cabin floor. I cannot recommend it from a H&S/environment/health point of view but lead would be the obvious choice. Patterns can be made from polystyrene to fit the available space under the floors, From these lead can then be used to cast weights that will fill as much of the space as possible. Please don't ask me for details of how I know it can be done, sufficient to say there was not a church roof in Essex that was safe . . .

 

 

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very few people have fixed fin keel boats on the east coast and rivers unless they have found deep water moorings at high and low tide, or they can be tied propped up to a post at low water when it dries out to save them toppling over, but thats hassle.  Retractable Centre plate or twin bilge keels  are the sailing boats to have. on the east coast.     Fixed fin keel boats for the west coast of the UK where most good moorings are deep water at low tide, but generally shingly or rocky bottom.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Very few people have fixed fin keel boats on the east coast and rivers unless they have found deep water moorings at high and low tide, or they can be tied propped up to a post at low water when it dries out to save them toppling over, but thats hassle.  Retractable Centre plate or twin bilge keels  are the sailing boats to have. on the east coast.     Fixed fin keel boats for the west coast of the UK where most good moorings are deep water at low tide, but generally shingly or rocky bottom.

East Coast (Well Next Sea) sorry about the quality of the pictures I was trying to zoom in from a long way away with the phone camera.

 

 

 

CAM00271.jpg

CAM00272.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The OP has the skills to work on a boat project.

Doesn't want to renovate for sea, mast and sails removed but fin keel too deep for canals, beam ok under 7'. Work to be done in boatyard.

This will necessitate removing the keel. Yard and crane fees will mount and require extra hands at times. 

Ballast will be needed, quarter ton of Avery weights maybe £200 or so. How much needed will also depend on nature of OP's proposed  extra superstructure.

Such major work should be checked with the insurance company to confirm cover will still be valid. Premium probably more and not universally available.

The finished boat will be 22' with mixed headroom.

A grp cruiser project of that size could possibly be found for under 1k. Will the OP have spent more by then on yard and materials? I suspect yes and then some. Projects like this aren't ridiculous at all for sheltered waters but they only seem viable for those with a yard and hiab/hoist/heathrobinson at their disposal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, BilgePump said:

The OP has the skills to work on a boat project.

Doesn't want to renovate for sea, mast and sails removed but fin keel too deep for canals, beam ok under 7'. Work to be done in boatyard.

This will necessitate removing the keel. Yard and crane fees will mount and require extra hands at times. 

Ballast will be needed, quarter ton of Avery weights maybe £200 or so. How much needed will also depend on nature of OP's proposed  extra superstructure.

Such major work should be checked with the insurance company to confirm cover will still be valid. Premium probably more and not universally available.

The finished boat will be 22' with mixed headroom.

A grp cruiser project of that size could possibly be found for under 1k. Will the OP have spent more by then on yard and materials? I suspect yes and then some. Projects like this aren't ridiculous at all for sheltered waters but they only seem viable for those with a yard and hiab/hoist/heathrobinson at their disposal.

if the boat is in a cradle and the keel is clear of the ground a crane is only needed to re-launch the boat.  keel bolts can be removed without lifting anything.

 

no need for iron ballast - pour in some concrete - isolate it from the shell with building plastic sheet.  if cast in small sections, with a steel loop protruding, the ballast can be removed at any time in the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

no need for iron ballast - pour in some concrete - isolate it from the shell with building plastic sheet.  if cast in small sections, with a steel loop protruding, the ballast can be removed at any time in the future.

Not really such a good idea, bilge space is limited, concret "only" weighs in at 150lbs/cu.ft. Lead weighs about 700lbs/cu.ft, well over three times as much and can be easily cast to fil the bilge spaces, furthermore if/when the boat is scraped the lead will still have a market value. ,Second best would be to cut up the iron keel, at least the material is available and at 450lbs/cu.ft. even allowing for bad fit would weigh in at twice that of concrete.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 20/12/2019 at 11:22, Mad Harold said:

I do like this.,

Their propulsion method may well be a pointer to the future.ie,electric untill you run out of juice,then a rope around the waist and shanks pony.

I am sure their progress won't be much slower than a ICE powered boat.

 

 

 

If only there were large animals with four legs that could be tamed to tow boats along.

 

6 hours ago, Man 'o Kent said:

Not really such a good idea, bilge space is limited, concret "only" weighs in at 150lbs/cu.ft. Lead weighs about 700lbs/cu.ft, well over three times as much and can be easily cast to fil the bilge spaces, furthermore if/when the boat is scraped the lead will still have a market value. ,Second best would be to cut up the iron keel, at least the material is available and at 450lbs/cu.ft. even allowing for bad fit would weigh in at twice that of concrete.

Density of Lead 11.34g/cm3, density of depleted Uranium 19.1g/cm3.

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.