Croydon canal

[Bill P]

Croydon canal at Norwood, 1828
At Norwood it followed a loop that almost enclosed an area of land which, locally, became known as Frog Island. My grandmother lived in what was once a canal side cottage there. There is still a large lake in South Norwood which was a feeder reservoir.

[mark99]

Our Croydon resident Peter will enjoy that!

[Ray T]

All hail this grand day (Croydon Canal)
http://www.waterwaysongs.info/all_hail.htm

 

All hail this grand day when with gay colours flying, The barges are seen on the current to glide, When with fond emulation all parties are vying, To make our canal of Old England the pride. Chorus : Long down its fair stream may the rich vessel glide, And the Croydon Canal be of England the pride. And may it long flourish, while commerce caressing, Adorns its gay banks with her wealth-bringing stores; To Croydon, and all round the country a blessing, May industry's sons ever thrive on its shore! And now my good fellows sure nothing is wanting To heighten our mirth and our blessings crown, But with the gay belles on its banks to be flaunting When spring smiles again on this high-favoured town.

[magpie patrick]

The Croydon Canal must be a candidate for the most-vanished canal in history. There is more left of the Dorset and Somerset and that was never finished and never opened!

 

About ten years ago I had a weekend in Croydon and saw the bit in Betts Park. Is there anything else left on any scale? 

[Boater Sam]

Similar to the Stockport Canal, never seen even a vestige of it! There may be a dry bit under the Hyde Road bridge in Gorton.

[magpie patrick]

2 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Similar to the Stockport Canal, never seen even a vestige of it! There may be a dry bit under the Hyde Road bridge in Gorton.

I used to think that of the Stockport Canal, but recently I walked it from Clayton Lock to Gorton Reservoir, including Gorton Aqueduct over the Railway. Its filled in but the course is unobstructed. The Croydon Canal has vanished without trace, you can't even followthe line! (Except for the bit in Betts Park)

 

Images of Gorton Aqueduct below

[Boater Sam]

Ooooh! lets flood it again, an easy restoration.

Thanks for that, I thought that it was more destroyed than that, the Stockport end and the terminal basin is completely built over.

[Heartland]

Returning to the subject of the Croydon Canal. the route, or much of it, was used for the London & Croydon Railway. It is the first canal, with act of parliament, to be abandoned. At the terminus there was a tramroad, Pitlake Railway which joined the Croydon, Merstham and Godstone Railway. The is also no trace of the Pitlake.

 

The Croydon Canal joined the Grand Surrey Canal and by that waterway barges were able to reach the River Thames. 

[magpie patrick]

1 hour ago, Heartland said:

Returning to the subject of the Croydon Canal. the route, or much of it, was used for the London & Croydon Railway. It is the first canal, with act of parliament, to be abandoned. At the terminus there was a tramroad, Pitlake Railway which joined the Croydon, Merstham and Godstone Railway. The is also no trace of the Pitlake.

 

The Croydon Canal joined the Grand Surrey Canal and by that waterway barges were able to reach the River Thames. 

That's an interesting first!

 

I've had a fascination with the Croydon for around 40 years since seeing a picture of the canal in Betts Park. At the time I didn't know that was all that was left. The Grand Surrey survived considerably longer (1970s?) but I think has similarly been swept into oblivion - unless someone knows better?

[Tim Lewis]

2 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

That's an interesting first!

 

I've had a fascination with the Croydon for around 40 years since seeing a picture of the canal in Betts Park. At the time I didn't know that was all that was left. The Grand Surrey survived considerably longer (1970s?) but I think has similarly been swept into oblivion - unless someone knows better?

Interesting map showing the route of the Croydon Canal superimposed onto a moden aerial view:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&t=h&om=0&ll=51.43776427914529%2C-0.05379877978964487&spn=0.024233%2C0.055361&z=18&iwloc=000444b5f2699ecc56aa4&mid=1zycne7SNL0lRWlm_YnWVoJnjs1s

 

There are significant sections of the route of the Grand Surrey Canal left open mainly in Burgess Park and the branch into Peckham including an original bridge, see picture

 

Recently came across these pictures of the Surrey Canal 'Improvements in the 1960's

 

https://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/quick-search?q=surrey canal improvrmrnt&WINID=1576679374050

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Tim Lewis

[Pluto]

Although not necessarily all canals, by 1859 some 556 miles of UK inland waterway had closed. Bedale Beck, which did have an Act, seems to have been abandoned by 1770. It does depend upon your interpretation of what canal means.

[mark99]

The map of the Croydon Canal is interesting as one of the sourcers of the River Wandle is nearby it's terminus. Perhaps the source could have been tapped or culverted in.

[magpie patrick]

2 hours ago, Pluto said:

Although not necessarily all canals, by 1859 some 556 miles of UK inland waterway had closed. Bedale Beck, which did have an Act, seems to have been abandoned by 1770. It does depend upon your interpretation of what canal means.

I took Heartland's text to.mean formally abandoned, rather than simply giving up. The Dorset and Somerset Canal is technically still under construction as the enabling act was never repealed, whereas the Croydon Canal navigation was legally extinguished.

 

I don't have Hadfield to hand so I'm not clear whether Bedale Beck was formally abandoned, but whilst the definition of canal might be imprecise, Bedale Beck clearly wasn't one. I think the distinction matters as canals were a phenomena in a way river navigations were not. Canals opened up places that were inconceivable for river navigation and the canal system (few areas can claim a river system) grew rapidly and occasionally foolishly. 

 

I will admit I haven't checked Heartland's claim that the Croydon was the first to be formally abandoned though. 

[Pluto]

I am not so sure you can differentiate between a river navigation and a canal. Certainly, from an economic stance, they are almost the same, the difference being from a technical point of view. Looking at waterway history generally, river navigations had shown the economic benefit of inland waterways in the years before the earliest industrial canals. I always think that the Aire & Calder was, historically, more important than the Bridgewater, as it was the first inland waterway promoted and built by local merchants and coal owners, and that local economic involvement was the key to the industrial revolution.

[Tacet]

There are some traces of the canal if you look in the right places with sufficient imagination.  There are a few scraps in Gloucester Road which it passed under https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3859181,-0.0892837,3a,75y,85.88h,74.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sz6RklSvdi7gMNqKukbEmVQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192.

 

The basin can be discerned in the current layout of the bus and tram station at West Croydon.  Also at Sunny Bank, South Norwood and, of course, Betts Park and South Norwood Lake

[matty40s]

....and the lock bollard under the road bridge further down....

[Capt Ahab]

On 18/12/2019 at 03:31, magpie patrick said:

The Croydon Canal must be a candidate for the most-vanished canal in history. There is more left of the Dorset and Somerset and that was never finished and never opened!

 

About ten years ago I had a weekend in Croydon and saw the bit in Betts Park. Is there anything else left on any scale? 

Patrick - I think the Cannock Extension beyond the A5 may possibly eclipse it in the "lostness" stakes....

[Heartland]

I was informed of the fact, in a conversation, that the Croydon Canal was the first canal to be abandoned at the RCHS AGM at Croydon. If I recall that was the same time that Pluto was elected RCHS president.

 

It is an interesting point, though, to refer to all navigations and river navigations are included in that. But as to UK canals, the Croydon must be in contention for that title. It was not until 1846 when there was program of railway companies taking over  WHOLE canals and closing them. 

 

The Croydon Canal,  as far as I understand was purchased by the London and Croydon Railway Company in 1836, that railway had been authorised in 1835. Work then went ahead with building the railway under the direction of engineer William Cubitt. In August 1836, the stock at Croydon Canal Wharf was offered for sale. The railway was completed an opened for traffic on June 1st 1839 (London Courier and Evening Gazette June 3rd 1839). 

 

Effective abandonment of the canal would have been with the start of construction, although an official abandonment seems not to be recorded, yet with the purchase and the intention to build a railway along the canal bed a date of 1836 must be a contender and at least 1839 when the railway was opened. The Croydon Canal Company continued in existence.

 

This company lasted until 1847:

 

CROYDON CANAL. Croydon, 20th January 1847.

The affairs of the Croydon Canal Company being now  in course of final settlement, the Committee are desirous that, if any claims should be still outstanding against the Company, they should be disposed of before the final distribution of the funds ; and for that purpose, notice is hereby given, that any persons having any such claims, are desired to send the same to us, on or before the 1st day of March next

JOHN and WM. DRUMMOND, Clerks to the Croydon Canal Co

 

London Gazette January 26^th 1847

    

[Pluto]

Amongst canals built under an Act and closed before 1830, I have listed:

Isle of Dogs Canal, Act 1799, out of use 1829

Pen-clawdd Canal, Act 1811, out of use 1818

St Colomb Canal, Act 1773, out of use 1781.

I compiled a national list of canals, with opening and closing dates, when BW asked in 2000 for the national length of navigable waterway at ten year intervals, with an outline of when pleasure boating developed. The list below gives the mileages which I came up with. The research was done fairly quickly and, with such a large number of sources, it is always difficult to know if the details you are using are similar in the way they have been estimated. I suspect that the dates for out of use are not necessarily the date of any official abandonment.

[David Mack]

It is a brave man who sets out the total mileage of the inland waterway network in use to the nearest 1/100 of a mile!

[Peter X]

On 17/12/2019 at 18:43, mark99 said:

Our Croydon resident Peter will enjoy that!

Yes... I read that Frog island later got renamed Sunny Bank; For many years the X family (especially my father's parents) lived in a house in Anerley, up near Crystal Palace Station. By 1969 his sister had the house, then  Bromley council compulsory purchased it, and my aunt bought a house in Sunny Bank with the proceeds, where my cousin now lives.

 

Having grown up in Anerley and lived in or near it much of my life, I'm familiar with the remaining section of the canal in Betts Park. That would still be practical to navigate, just bring a light inflatable! But I doubt I'll live to see the canal  restored all the way from West Croydon up to the Surrey Docks. If they ever do that it would be nice to restore the canals connecting to Peckham and Camberwell too. Nowadays Croydon has some famous singers, maybe Adele and Stormzy should record a mew version of that excellent song. It has great comic potential I reckon; maybe the lyricist in 1809 had their tongue firmly in cheek.

[Pluto]

13 hours ago, David Mack said:

It is a brave man who sets out the total mileage of the inland waterway network in use to the nearest 1/100 of a mile!

It's changing furlongs and yards into decimals - perhaps I should have stayed with traditional measurements.

[Heartland]

The list of three is relevant to investigate further-

 

Amongst canals built under an Act and closed before 1830, Pluto have listed:

Isle of Dogs Canal, Act 1799, out of use 1829

Pen-clawdd Canal, Act 1811, out of use 1818

St Colomb Canal, Act 1773, out of use 1781.

 

But were they abandoned and removed, like the Croydon?

 

With the St Columb Canal there is the issue, that this canal was never finished, so does it fall into the category of canals like the the Dorset & Somerset?

 

Charles Hadfield reports that the act was 1773 and construction was 1777-1779. It was 6. 5 miles long with 2 incline planes. The full length of the waterway has been suggested to be 13 miles long 

 

For the Pen-clawdd Canal, this was mentioned in a recent Waterways History Group (RCHS) notes and queries. It is recorded the canal was built 1811-1814 and had about 4 years of commercial use, according to the Welsh Government website. When it ceased to be used is a matter that perhaps deserves further research. The route, or part of it, was converted into railway in 1867.  

 

The Pen clawdd Canal was built as canal and on the early O/S of c 1828 is shown to have a level section and two locks to a terminus where tramways from coal mines existed.

 

The Isle of Dogs Canal, or City Canal was used until the sale to the West India Dock Company in 1828, I believe. At a later time the docks were built on the site and in a sense the waterway was not lost, but converted to another use in the Dock Complex

 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Heartland

[Bill P]

Apparently, the best preserved and most original remnant is in gardens adjacent to Manor Road, South Norwood. The gardens behind the working men's club there are reported to be recognisably a canal bed but I haven't seen that myself.

[Bill P]

21 hours ago, Peter X said:

Yes... I read that Frog island later got renamed Sunny Bank; For many years the X family (especially my father's parents) lived in a house in Anerley, up near Crystal Palace Station. By 1969 his sister had the house, then  Bromley council compulsory purchased it, and my aunt bought a house in Sunny Bank with the proceeds, where my cousin now lives.

 

Having grown up in Anerley and lived in or near it much of my life, I'm familiar with the remaining section of the canal in Betts Park. That would still be practical to navigate, just bring a light inflatable! But I doubt I'll live to see the canal  restored all the way from West Croydon up to the Surrey Docks. If they ever do that it would be nice to restore the canals connecting to Peckham and Camberwell too. Nowadays Croydon has some famous singers, maybe Adele and Stormzy should record a mew version of that excellent song. It has great comic potential I reckon; maybe the lyricist in 1809 had their tongue firmly in cheek.

I was actually born on Frog Island. I'm not sure if that is a claim to fame or not....

Old as I am, I don't quite remember the canal.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Bill P