Frost stat on Webasto

[jddevel]

Having a frost stat put on my webasto heater which it has been suggested will be wired straight to the leisure batteries. Problem is that when the batteries were wired by the qualified boat electrician they were wired in series inspite of the method suggested via the forum and others. To me this would mean that although I would isloate all the leisure batteries via my current isolating switch being in series any fault on the heater would surely discharge all the 5 leisure batteries? I currently have a single solar panel which seems to successfully maintain my batteries over the winter months. How to contributors suggest I get the system wired. I am considering a additional solar panel anyway so would a dedicated battery with a split supply from either the existing or additional panel/battery be the way to go please? 

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, jddevel said:

Problem is that when the batteries were wired by the qualified boat electrician they were wired in series inspite of the method suggested via the forum and others.

Oh no they weren’t

 

Hey, it’s panto season. 
 

If they were wired in series you’d have 36V, 48V, or 60V, depending on whether you have 3, 4, or 5 batteries in the bank. 

[BEngo]

Lots of separate batteries is not the ideal way to go because the Peukert effect means you lose overall capacity.

However i do nof teally understand your problem.  Unless you have a 60 V domestic system your batteries cannot be wired in series.  Can you draw a diagram of how the batteries are connected to each othe and to the domestic loads please?

N

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, jddevel said:

Having a frost stat put on my webasto heater which it has been suggested will be wired straight to the leisure batteries

Absolutely the normal way to do things. 
 

It’s then up to you to ensure that you do always have sufficient charge in those batteries. 

Get more solar. There’s no such thing as too much. 

2 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Lots of separate batteries is not the ideal way to go because the Peukert effect means you lose overall capacity.

Plus it’s a pain to charge them unless you have a bunch of VSRs. 

[Alan de Enfield]

31 minutes ago, jddevel said:

Having a frost stat put on my webasto heater which it has been suggested will be wired straight to the leisure batteries. Problem is that when the batteries were wired by the qualified boat electrician they were wired in series inspite of the method suggested via the forum and others. To me this would mean that although I would isloate all the leisure batteries via my current isolating switch being in series any fault on the heater would surely discharge all the 5 leisure batteries? I currently have a single solar panel which seems to successfully maintain my batteries over the winter months. How to contributors suggest I get the system wired. I am considering a additional solar panel anyway so would a dedicated battery with a split supply from either the existing or additional panel/battery be the way to go please? 

 

Unless you are on board all the time, or, are on a landline with a battery charger on 24/7 it strikes me as a bad idea.

 

You are away from the boat for a couple of weeks over Christmas and we have the 'forecasted 'cold spell' with the (alleged) 3 feet of snow and temps never getting above 3*C.

 

Your Webasto will be on/off almost continuously and discharging your batteries, your batteries will become flat and sulphated and you will need a new set (£500 ?)

In addition the Webastos do not like cycling (no not that type of cycling) and will require (at a minimum) a big service to remove the carbon from the combustion chamber.

 

Drawing 3 amps and on for (say) 12 hours per day (cycling on & off) to maintain 5*C it will use 36Ah per day, 360Ah for 10 days, 720Ah for 20 days.

At about 0.5 litres per hour it will be using 6 litres per day of diesel, 60 litres in 10 days, 120 litres in 20 days. Ensure your tank is full.

 

A 'single' solar panel at this time of year will have absolutely no chance of keeping the batteries topped up with that sort of usage.

 

It doesn't matter to the Webasto, or the Solar panel how many batteries you have.

 

The webast will be taking (as per the example) 36Ah per day, this could be provided from a single 110Ah battery, or it could be by taking 5Ah out of each of a 5-battery bank.

 

Whichever you chooses you will have to replace about 43 Ah THAT SAME DAY to get back to where you started from

Edited December 11, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[jddevel]

I`m showing my ignorance of the way batteries are/should be wired and why I had the operation completed by a qualified canal based electrcian When I say they are in series I mean they are linked in such a way as to give me 12volts but an increased capacity. So I obviously should have said parallel. I will not be completing this upgrade myself-good I hear you all cry. So it would appear from WotEvers` comment being away from the boat most of the winter and having no mains at my mooring that a dedicated battery and additional solar panel will be needed. That said obviously I`m assuming that the Webasto Top C installed would draw more than the current solar panel could realistically maintain. I can`tremember its exact output but over 200w rings a bell

[jddevel]

I think Alan has just about answered my questions. Don`t do it basically. It`s difficult to know when away from the boat what precautions to take to avoid problems. The boat is well insulated (Kingspan and vapour barrier} with certainly the rads having antifreeze and water pump well covered. 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, jddevel said:

I can`tremember its exact output but over 200w rings a bell

You may have a bit of good weather, be lucky, and get something like 8- 10Ah (1 amp and 8 hours of daylight) which will NOT support the Webasto drawing 3 amps, over a 24 hour period, at 50% running rate that would be 36Ah and you are putting back 8Ah.

A couple of days of overcast / rain and your battery would be TOTALLY (that's shouting) crackered.

[jddevel]

Thanks again Alan. Duly noted.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, jddevel said:

I think Alan has just about answered my questions. Don`t do it basically. It`s difficult to know when away from the boat what precautions to take to avoid problems. The boat is well insulated (Kingspan and vapour barrier} with certainly the rads having antifreeze and water pump well covered. 

There are really only a couple of safe options if leaving the boat for more than a couple of days :

 

1) take a mooring with electric hook-up and run some greenhouse heaters / oil filled radiators.

2) drain the system down properly.

 

My 'hook-up' bill is £1.08 per day to run two 375 watt greenhouse heaters (on alternately - one on each side of the engine compartment) They are on timers so for pretty much all of the time (except a few hours in an afternoon) there is always one heater on, and during the early hours (2:00 - 5:00 am) both heaters are on.

[jddevel]

Is the engine not taken care of via anti freeze? I`ve no hook-up available. 

[Chewbacka]

2 hours ago, jddevel said:

I`m showing my ignorance of the way batteries are/should be wired and why I had the operation completed by a qualified canal based electrcian When I say they are in series I mean they are linked in such a way as to give me 12volts but an increased capacity. So I obviously should have said parallel. I will not be completing this upgrade myself-good I hear you all cry. So it would appear from WotEvers` comment being away from the boat most of the winter and having no mains at my mooring that a dedicated battery and additional solar panel will be needed. That said obviously I`m assuming that the Webasto Top C installed would draw more than the current solar panel could realistically maintain. I can`tremember its exact output but over 200w rings a bell

Unfortunately the solar panel can only convert the sun's energy into electricity based on the brightness of the sun,  The panel output is measured with a sun power of about 1kW per square meter.  This is like Spain in mid summer at mid day with a clear sky and the panel facing the sun.  So in the UK achieving anything like a panels specified output is not common, our weather is just not good enough.

So as you can feel if you face the sun, the power of the sun at mid-day in the UK in the winter months is very little.  This is made much worse by the very low angle of the sun falling onto a horizontal panel.  Then there are only a few hours of daylight in the winter, so you can expect to get no more than a few amp hours on a good winters day.  On a typical cloudy and overcast winter day it will be close to nothing.........

Edited December 11, 2019 by Chewbacka

[jddevel]

Think I`ve come up with another cunning plan which I`m awaiting a response from a manufacturer to see if my idea has mileage. 

[dor]

Why not just winterise the boat properly, especially if you are going to leave it alone for some time.

It doesn't take that long to drain down the water system and then you will be safe.

[jddevel]

Agreed however never one as my wife points out satisfied with doing one thing I`m reviewing a remote cctv system which will need certain "things" that could have a multi-purpose. Technology  is wonderful. Trouble is I don`t understand much of it but certainly happy to put it to use.

[Chewbacka]

3 hours ago, jddevel said:

Agreed however never one as my wife points out satisfied with doing one thing I`m reviewing a remote cctv system which will need certain "things" that could have a multi-purpose. Technology  is wonderful. Trouble is I don`t understand much of it but certainly happy to put it to use.

And the power to run this monitoring system comes from???

[jddevel]

OK so this is the silly plan which in my naive way I`m exploring. WiFi phone tehered to a on board router and using something like this  https://quasarelectronics.co.uk/Item/velleman-mmk160-remote-control-via-gsm-mobile-phone-module. is actvated from my home. The only thing permanently live is the phone or phones which are just at rest permanently attached via a usb to a dedicated 12v 110 ah battery which is linked to a solar panel for charging. So in principle when I phone the wifi phone I can switch on the cctv or any on board unit for a quick look using voice activation. It does mean that I may need two phones. One connected to the MMK160 through which I can voice control the wifi phone. As I said I`m very naive in my understanding of the possibilities of technology and I`m sure someone or many will "shoot me down" but then with all this wet weather and the election sorted I`ve got to do something to while away the time.

[GUMPY]

Ready built ready to go!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Garage-Door-Hardware/Senders-Gate-Opener-Remote-Switch-Control-RTU5024/B01CKXSJRU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488811235&sr=8-1&keywords=gsm+garage

No mobile phone required its all one unit.

[jddevel]

That`s very interesting Loddon. Thankyou. From preliminary viewing it doesn`t state it`s power source supply so I assume a dedicated 12v battery and again solar back up. This is also available if I just  I just wanted to run the heating.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F322337711011

Inorder to run the cctv if required I believe I`ll still need an on board smart phone thethered to a router to enable camera monitoring?

[Chewbacka]

1 hour ago, jddevel said:

That`s very interesting Loddon. Thankyou. From preliminary viewing it doesn`t state it`s power source supply so I assume a dedicated 12v battery and again solar back up. This is also available if I just  I just wanted to run the heating.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F322337711011

Inorder to run the cctv if required I believe I`ll still need an on board smart phone thethered to a router to enable camera monitoring?

You can use a remote switch to turn on the power to something like this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TP-Link-Archer-MR200-AC750-Wireless-Dual-Band-4G-LTE-Router-WiFi-Sim-Card-plug/223787638454?epid=5033531550&hash=item341ac85eb6:g:GrMAAOSwkwxd7iEY

 

The next problem if you wish to access by smartphone is that both ends of your link have changing ip addresses so you need the receiving end to log on to a fixed server from where you can get it’s IP address so you can find it.

 

From memory the tp-link unit can do this, but you may need to pay for the service.

[Alan de Enfield]

34 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

You can use a remote switch to turn on the power to something like this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TP-Link-Archer-MR200-AC750-Wireless-Dual-Band-4G-LTE-Router-WiFi-Sim-Card-plug/223787638454?epid=5033531550&hash=item341ac85eb6:g:GrMAAOSwkwxd7iEY

 

The next problem if you wish to access by smartphone is that both ends of your link have changing ip addresses so you need the receiving end to log on to a fixed server from where you can get it’s IP address so you can find it.

 

From memory the tp-link unit can do this, but you may need to pay for the service.

 

 

Isn't it so much easier (and cheaper) just to drain the system ?

[Chewbacka]

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Isn't it so much easier (and cheaper) just to drain the system ?

That all depends on whether the objective is an interesting (but pointless) technical challenge or to protect the boat from frost damage.  I suspect the former.

[jddevel]

4 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

The next problem if you wish to access by smartphone is that both ends of your link have changing ip addresses so you need the receiving end to log on to a fixed server from where you can get it’s IP address so you can find it.

We`re on BT and currently run a cctv system at our stables. However the router is attached to a BT landline so your reference to IP addresses don`t know whether that overcomes that problem?

 

3 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

That all depends on whether the objective is an interesting (but pointless) technical challenge or to protect the boat from frost damage.  I suspect the former.

As I commented earlier always looking for multi purpose/use. Whist I accept that draining the system is the obvious preventative regarding frost damage if the technology is there why not use it. I believe the lazer was discovered but didn`t know what purpose it could be put to. Just had another thought. Wonder if the remote on/off could be intigrated into cars with text/rings to mobile if the cars stolen. Then you could immobilize it via your phone. Our stable alarm rings us if it`s activate.

[jddevel]

I would add that in the early 70s I had a guy make me a sort of card device which would allow the use of the domestic washing machines I rented out. It cost me £130 for the prototype and was quoted £109 for each card and reader. Didn`t pursue it to expensive, but the principle became the phone card and look where thats lead-credit cards, bank cards etc.

[Chewbacka]

1 hour ago, jddevel said:

We`re on BT and currently run a cctv system at our stables. However the router is attached to a BT landline so your reference to IP addresses don`t know whether that overcomes that problem?

 

As I commented earlier always looking for multi purpose/use. Whist I accept that draining the system is the obvious preventative regarding frost damage if the technology is there why not use it. I believe the lazer was discovered but didn`t know what purpose it could be put to. Just had another thought. Wonder if the remote on/off could be intigrated into cars with text/rings to mobile if the cars stolen. Then you could immobilize it via your phone. Our stable alarm rings us if it`s activate.

Our virgin cable internet being ‘on’ all the time has an IP address that doesn’t change for months, but as IP addresses are running short, I think phones tend to ‘give up’ their IP address when they are turned off/loose signal and you get another address when you reconnect, at least i think it does this.