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Calorifier leaking problem


Jennifer

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5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

A 6 bar PRV fitted to a 4 bar calorifier is likely to result in a leak sooner rather than later!

I suspect the EV is doing nothing, and you have less leakage from the PRV because it is set to open at a significantly higher pressure.

I don't think there is a suggestion a 6 bar one has been fitted is there?  - the 6 bar has come from an example Mike found at Screwfix, not anything Jennifer has said.

I think if what has been fitted is described by Screwfix as 1- 3 bar, it is probably a 3 bar one.  I would expect it to be marked on the top as such, but I think that is info we are currently lacking.

However if Jennifer's "expert" has replaced a 4 bar PRV with a 3 bar one, I would not be in any way surprised if they had also not done (at least one of) the following...

1) T'eed the EV into the wrong pipe.
2) Failed to set the pre-charge pressure appropriately.

The best scenario here would be that it is only (2) they have got wrong!

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5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I don't think there is a suggestion a 6 bar one has been fitted is there?  - the 6 bar has come from an example Mike found at Screwfix, not anything Jennifer has said.

I think if what has been fitted is described by Screwfix as 1- 3 bar, it is probably a 3 bar one.  I would expect it to be marked on the top as such, but I think that is info we are currently lacking.

However if Jennifer's "expert" has replaced a 4 bar PRV with a 3 bar one, I would not be in any way surprised if they had also not done (at least one of) the following...

1) T'eed the EV into the wrong pipe.
2) Failed to set the pre-charge pressure appropriately.

The best scenario here would be that it is only (2) they have got wrong!

HI have just been down there it is 3 bar am not surprised the guy was useless

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To check your pressure you will need a gauge of some sort. I favour the "pen" type with a graduated scale that pops out, I do not trust cheap gauges with small dials as their accuracy is questionable,, whereas the pen type, while not quite as easy to use, are  more reliable.

 

You may also need a tyre pump of some sort, so beg/borrow a foot/styrup/12V electric tyre pump if you can.

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8 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

HI have just been down there it is 3 bar am not surprised the guy was useless

It's probably not disastrous that he has replaced 4 bar with 3 bar, though it would have been better to replace like with like.

I think the first thing is to try to ensure your accumulator is pre-charged to more that 2.4 bar and less than 3 bar (try 2.6 bar as I suggested).  This should be done with the water pump turned off, and taps opened so the system is otherwise depressurised, not with the water pump turned on.

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Just now, alan_fincher said:

It's probably not disastrous that he has replaced 4 bar with 3 bar, though it would have been better to replace like with like.

I think the first thing is to try to ensure your accumulator is pre-charged to more that 2.4 bar and less than 3 bar (try 2.6 bar as I suggested).  This should be done with the water pump turned off, and taps opened so the system is otherwise depressurised, not with the water pump turned on.

Thanks Alan will have a go tomorrow may also put the original PRV back in as I very much doubt anything was wrong with it in the first place !!

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Just now, Jennifer said:

Thanks Alan will have a go tomorrow may also put the original PRV back in as I very much doubt anything was wrong with it in the first place !!

If you can post a picture of where he has T-eed the EV into the hot water pipework, that would also be useful.

Those calorifiers have a well disguised non-return valve embedded into the "pre-plumbed" part, and if someone is not familiar with them, they could have attached the EV to part of the plumbing where it can't actually do anything useful.....

.... However ....

You have indicated, I think, that even with the 4 bar PRV replaced by a 3 bar one, leakage is less than it was, so I am moderately optimistic that the EV is doing something, but quite possibly not at the right pressure.

Anyway it is late, so I'm out of here for tonight - I'm sure you'll let us know how you got on....

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9 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

If you can post a picture of where he has T-eed the EV into the hot water pipework, that would also be useful.

Those calorifiers have a well disguised non-return valve embedded into the "pre-plumbed" part, and if someone is not familiar with them, they could have attached the EV to part of the plumbing where it can't actually do anything useful.....

.... However ....

You have indicated, I think, that even with the 4 bar PRV replaced by a 3 bar one, leakage is less than it was, so I am moderately optimistic that the EV is doing something, but quite possibly not at the right pressure.

Anyway it is late, so I'm out of here for tonight - I'm sure you'll let us know how you got on....

 

9 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

If you can post a picture of where he has T-eed the EV into the hot water pipework, that would also be useful.

Those calorifiers have a well disguised non-return valve embedded into the "pre-plumbed" part, and if someone is not familiar with them, they could have attached the EV to part of the plumbing where it can't actually do anything useful.....

.... However ....

You have indicated, I think, that even with the 4 bar PRV replaced by a 3 bar one, leakage is less than it was, so I am moderately optimistic that the EV is doing something, but quite possibly not at the right pressure.

Anyway it is late, so I'm out of here for tonight - I'm sure you'll let us know how you got on....

Hi Alan just thinking does it matter leaving the 3 bar prv on or should I change it back to the 4 bar that I still have as it was not faulty in the first place.  Also have confirmed the accumulator is on the non return valve pipe 

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2 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

Which says....

 

Quote

The tanks are pre set at our factory for most systems, however the pressure is worth checking as some installations are set up with different pump pressures. In general the required pressure setting for an expansion bottle is 5psi above your pump pressure. If you do not know your pump pressure then set the expansion tank to 30 psi.

 

Jenniferstates her pump is 2.4 bar, which is 35 psi in round numbers.  So if you add 5 psi to that it would mean pre-charging the EV at 40 psi.

 

However if we believe the PRV has now been changed to a 3 bar one, that implies it will start to dribble at 43.5 psi.

To my mind none of these numbers are precise, s if we set the EV at only 3.5 psi less than the PRV rating, there is a distinct possibility of water still being ejected rather than expanding into the EV.

To guarantee that the EV does its job if charged to 40 psi, I think the PRV needs changing back to a 4 bar one, (which is 58 psi).  The margin between 40 psi and 58 psi is huge, and the EV, must do its job.  With just  3.5 psi margin, I would not like to guarantee it at all.

Either way, I suspect te EV is not currently charged at 40 psi, (unless Jennifer has now arranged that).

31 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

 

Hi Alan just thinking does it matter leaving the 3 bar prv on or should I change it back to the 4 bar that I still have as it was not faulty in the first place.  Also have confirmed the accumulator is on the non return valve pipe 

 

See above, but I don't think you can guarantee success with a 2.4 bar pump and a 3 bar PRV, if you follow the Surejust advice and charge the EV to 40 psi (which is about 2.8 bar - too close in my view to the 3 bar PRV, particularly as whatever you use to measure the pressure probably will not be that accurate.

Edited by alan_fincher
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8 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Which says....

 

 

Jenniferstates her pump is 2.4 bar, which is 35 psi in round numbers.  So if you add 5 psi to that it would mean pre-charging the EV at 40 psi.

 

However if we believe the PRV has now been changed to a 3 bar one, that implies it will start to dribble at 43.5 psi.

To my mind none of these numbers are precise, s if we set the EV at only 3.5 psi less than the PRV rating, there is a distinct possibility of water still being ejected rather than expanding into the EV.

To guarantee that the EV does its job if charged to 40 psi, I think the PRV needs changing back to a 4 bar one, (which is 58 psi).  The margin between 40 psi and 58 psi is huge, and the EV, must do its job.  With just  3.5 psi margin, I would not like to guarantee it at all.

Either way, I suspect te EV is not currently charged at 40 psi, (unless Jennifer has now arranged that).

 

See above, but I don't think you can guarantee success with a 2.4 bar pump and a 3 bar PRV, if you follow the Surejust advice and charge the EV to 40 psi (which is about 2.8 bar - too close in my view to the 3 bar PRV, particularly as whatever you use to measure the pressure probably will not be that accurate.

Ok understand thanks the first thing I am going to do is change the prv back to the 4 bar with the pump off and pressure released and then I will come back to you thanks

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10 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

If you can post a picture of where he has T-eed the EV into the hot water pipework, that would also be useful.

Those calorifiers have a well disguised non-return valve embedded into the "pre-plumbed" part, and if someone is not familiar with them, they could have attached the EV to part of the plumbing where it can't actually do anything useful.....

.... However ....

You have indicated, I think, that even with the 4 bar PRV replaced by a 3 bar one, leakage is less than it was, so I am moderately optimistic that the EV is doing something, but quite possibly not at the right pressure.

Anyway it is late, so I'm out of here for tonight - I'm sure you'll let us know how you got on....

 

10 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

If you can post a picture of where he has T-eed the EV into the hot water pipework, that would also be useful.

Those calorifiers have a well disguised non-return valve embedded into the "pre-plumbed" part, and if someone is not familiar with them, they could have attached the EV to part of the plumbing where it can't actually do anything useful.....

.... However ....

You have indicated, I think, that even with the 4 bar PRV replaced by a 3 bar one, leakage is less than it was, so I am moderately optimistic that the EV is doing something, but quite possibly not at the right pressure.

Anyway it is late, so I'm out of here for tonight - I'm sure you'll let us know how you got on....

Hi Alan just thinking does it matter leaving the 3 bar prv on or should I change it back to the 4 bar that I still have as it was not faulty in the first place.  Also have confirmed the accumulator is on the non return valve pipe 

Before I go any further here are some pics of the setup showing where it is plumbed in is this correct ?

20191228_101546.jpg

20191228_101517.jpg

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I believe the EV has been connected to the wrong place!

Looking at your first picture the brass fitment nearest the camera is the thermostatic mixing valve and the hose running away from that should be te outlet from the whole arrangement, feeding all your hot taps.  Are you able to confirm this?

 

If so that is the pipe the expansion vessel should be connected to.

See here....

http://www.surejust.co.uk/surecal-horizontal-calorifier-connection-instructions

 

The pipe it is  connected to appears to be the cold feed to the whole set up.  If so it is connected to the wrong side of the non-return valve that is embedded as part of that lower fitting, so it can't work as a hot water expansion vessel.

Whoever you got to do this work apperas to be clueless, and not bothered to look at the manufacturers instructions to get around their cluelessness.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

At least it is all rubber pipework, so easier to sort out than if done the more usual way with solid pipe and fittings.

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8 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

At least it is all rubber pipework, so easier to sort out than if done the more usual way with solid pipe and fittings.

 

Agree with everything Alan has said so far, and not just in this post. 

 

One further thing is your calorifier appears to be piped up in rubber hose clamped onto plain stubs of copper tube in the fittings. This is poor practice as the rubber tube really needs to be fitted onto annular ringed tube adaptors. Rubber hoses are prone to leakage when fitted onto plain stubs. This might be the reason for your post 65. 

 

This type of thing:

 

s-l1600.jpg

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brass-3-4-1-2-1-NPT-Male-Thread-to-Hose-Barb-Coupler-Adaptor-Fitting-Connector/292255846177?hash=item440bce4f21:m:mCv4X6tK44xwBq8QpO6v4zQ

 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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21 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Agree with everything Alan has said so far, and not just in this post. 

 

One further thing is your calorifier appears to be piped up in rubber hose clamped onto plain stubs of copper tube in the fittings. This is poor practice as the rubber tube really needs to be fitted onto annular ringed tube adaptors. Rubber hoses are prone to leakage when fitted onto plain stubs. This might be the reason for your post 65. 

 

This type of thing:

 

s-l1600.jpg

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brass-3-4-1-2-1-NPT-Male-Thread-to-Hose-Barb-Coupler-Adaptor-Fitting-Connector/292255846177?hash=item440bce4f21:m:mCv4X6tK44xwBq8QpO6v4zQ

 

 

Hi agree that the person who fitted this is clueless and to be honest did not care I have just tightened up the jubilee clips on the pipes and there is no more leaks I have turned the website on and am going to leave it running all day to see if there are any more leaks for now I think it is best I leave it at that and get someone who knows how this should of been fitted to sort it out long term any suggestions of anyone decent near Teddington would be much appreciated.

 

You guys are a godsend thankyou for all your help I owe you all a drink !

Just now, Jennifer said:

Hi agree that the person who fitted this is clueless and to be honest did not care I have just tightened up the jubilee clips on the pipes and there is no more leaks I have turned the website on and am going to leave it running all day to see if there are any more leaks for now I think it is best I leave it at that and get someone who knows how this should of been fitted to sort it out long term any suggestions of anyone decent near Teddington would be much appreciated.

 

You guys are a godsend thankyou for all your help I owe you all a drink !

SORRY not turned the website on ! Webasto on !!

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9 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

I have just tightened up the jubilee clips on the pipes and there is no more leaks

 

There probably weren't any when he left either. The problem with jubilee clips holding rubber tube onto plain pipe stubs is tightening works fine for a day or three, then the rubber softens with the heat, the clips become looser again, and leaks return. Watch out for this. The pipe can also just pop off the stubs too, although this is quite rare. 

 

 

Turn the water pump OFF when you leave the boat or go to sleep. This is good practice anyway. 

 

 

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If there's enough length on the plain pipe stub you can create your own barb or lump on the pipe to stop plastic tube leaking or easing off when the clip slackens.  Just get a compression fitting of the correct size for the pipe stub, slip the nut on first, then the olive and then the fitting, push it on to the stop, screw the nut onto it and tighten squeezing the olive firmly onto the pipe stub. Undo the nut and remove the fitting to leave the olive stuck on the pipe. The nut will now be trapped behind the olive which can either be left there, bound up so it doesn't rattle or gently ground or sawn through to remove it.   You will now have a secure barb or circular lump on the pipe for the hose clip to grip behind.

Quote

 

 

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On 28/12/2019 at 11:02, alan_fincher said:

I believe the EV has been connected to the wrong place!

Looking at your first picture the brass fitment nearest the camera is the thermostatic mixing valve and the hose running away from that should be te outlet from the whole arrangement, feeding all your hot taps.  Are you able to confirm this?

 

If so that is the pipe the expansion vessel should be connected to.

See here....

http://www.surejust.co.uk/surecal-horizontal-calorifier-connection-instructions

 

The pipe it is  connected to appears to be the cold feed to the whole set up.  If so it is connected to the wrong side of the non-return valve that is embedded as part of that lower fitting, so it can't work as a hot water expansion vessel.

Whoever you got to do this work apperas to be clueless, and not bothered to look at the manufacturers instructions to get around their cluelessness.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

At least it is all rubber pipework, so easier to sort out than if done the more usual way with solid pipe and fittings.

Hi having done some more digging into the setup in the picture we now know that the whole system did not have a accumulator tank fitted anywhere even though we had paid for this, the red expansion bottle in the picture is actually acting as an accumulator tank on the cold feed as there was never one put in.  We will still need an expansion bottle on the hot side and am going to get quotes for this in the new year to sort it all out.  Am really angry with the installer and will be taking it further as they were clueless for a lot of money !

Edited by Jennifer
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13 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

..... the red expansion bottle in the picture is actually acting as an accumulator tank on the cold feed as there was never one put in........

Yes it will be, but only if correctly pressurised to act as a cold water accumulator rather than as a hot water expamsion vessel.

Although both can physically be implemented by the same vessel. the rules for setting the pre-charge pressure on an accumulatorn are quite different from an EV, and the correct pressurewill be far less.

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1 minute ago, alan_fincher said:

Yes it will be, but only if correctly pressurised to act as a cold water accumulator rather than as a hot water expamsion vessel.

Although both can physically be implemented by the same vessel. the rules for setting the pre-charge pressure on an accumulatorn are quite different from an EV, and the correct pressurewill be far less.

Hi Alan yes will check that but for now no more leaks or issues however am going to get the correct pipes and setup done early Jan by someone reputable.  If you knew how much I was charged for this work it would shock you.  Knowing a bit more about what is required now I would never of paid that but lesson learnt ....

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