Calorifier leaking problem

[Jennifer]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The new expansion tank is not working.

 

Probably charged to the wrong pressure.

 

 

Hi Mike thanks for coming back to me do you know how do I change the pressure on it ?

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Jennifer said:

Hi Mike thanks for coming back to me do you know how do I change the pressure on it ?

 

Yes, either add or remove air using the Schraeder valve on the vessel.

 

 

[Jennifer]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes, either add or remove air using the Schraeder valve on the vessel.

 

 

Not sure where that valve is, sorry for sounding stupid but how would I know whether to add or remove air is there a way of telling what is needed ?

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Yes, either add or remove air using the Schraeder valve on the vessel.

And in this particular case, remove it. 

[alan_fincher]

Needs to be set higher than the cut out pressure of your pump, but less than the pressure at which the PRV opens. 

If those are for example 2 bar and 3 bar, (approx 29 psi & 45 psi), then the pre-charge pressure in the EV must lie beteen those values, or it will not work.

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

And in this particular case, remove it. 

???

How do we know it is not set too low?

[MtB]

The expansion vessel will not work if the pressure inside it too high OR too low. It will also not work if fitted into the wrong pipe. 

 

Look at it to find the Schrader valve, like a car tyre valve. It's blooming obvious!

 

  

[Jennifer]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

The expansion vessel will not work if the pressure inside it too high OR too low. It will also not work if fitted into the wrong pipe. 

 

Look at it to find the Schrader valve, like a car tyre valve. It's blooming obvious!

 

  

Will find it tomorrow but not sure how much air to take out may have to get someone in for this but thanks guys much appreciated 

[alan_fincher]

Do you know....

1) The stated pressure at which your water pump should cut out

2) The stated pressure at which your PRV should open.

Either may be stated in psi or bar - no problem as conversion is easy.

Do you have a bike pump or a car foot pump with a pressure gauge on, and which fits a Schreader (car tyre type) valve?

If so, you can check this yourself, but you do need to be able to read the pressure the EV is pre-charged to.

You might do it bu guesswork, but very possibly you will not!

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Will find it tomorrow but not sure how much air to take out may have to get someone in for this but thanks guys much appreciated 

 

Nobody knows except a person who is there and able to measure the pump switching pressures. Frankly, your plumber should have done this for you.

 

 

[Jennifer]

Just now, alan_fincher said:

Do you know....

1) The stated pressure at which your water pump should cut out

2) The stated pressure at which your PRV should open.

Either may be stated in psi or bar - no problem as conversion is easy.

Do you have a bike pump or a car foot pump with a pressure gauge on, and which fits a Schreader (car tyre type) valve?

If so, you can check this yourself, but you do need to be able to read the pressure the EV is pre-charged to.

You might do it bu guesswork, but very possibly you will not!

Hi we have a V Flo 5.0 2.4 bar and a hotpot 55L calorifier with a 5vlitre expansion tank.  I do have a bike pump in the car with a gauge but not sure what the target pressure should be.  I would like to try to do this myself as had enough of paying others when we are skint !

7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Nobody knows except a person who is there and able to measure the pump switching pressures. Frankly, your plumber should have done this for you.

 

 

Yes I know but that would mean he would not make more money out of us having to come back we have not had any luck with plumbers unfortunately 

[David Mack]

Can you confirm where the EV is fitted. If it is on the cold inlet pipe and there is a non-return valve fitted to the calorifier inlet, then it cannot function as an EV.

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Hi we have a V Flo 5.0 2.4 bar

 

2.4 bar is an awfully high pressure pump to be using with a calorifier probably limited to 3 bar.

 

Start by looking in the pump manual to find out the cut-in and cut-off pressures and post the values here....

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman
Add a bit

[Jennifer]

Just now, David Mack said:

Can you confirm where the EV is fitted. If it is on the cold inlet pipe and there is a non-return valve fitted to the calorifier inlet, then it cannot function as an EV.

Hi I am not sure which pipe it was fitted to one thing I do know however is before this was fitted the bulge had a lot of water from the PRV now it is only a small amount say half a cup at most so not sure if that could still be normal ?

[alan_fincher]

1 minute ago, Jennifer said:

Hi we have a V Flo 5.0 2.4 bar and a hotpot 55L calorifier with a 5vlitre expansion tank.  I do have a bike pump in the car with a gauge but not sure what the target pressure should be.  I would like to try to do this myself as had enough of paying others when we are skint !

What we need to know also is the rating of the PRV, (which as it has just been replaced should be "knowable".

But if your pump is capable of 2.4 bar (about 35psi). we already know that the expansion vessel needs to be pre-charged to more than that.  Assuming PRV is 3 bar, I'd try (say) 2.6 bar for the pressure on the EV (or 38 psi, if your pump gauge doesn't show bar)>

Your PRV musn't be less than you set the EV pressure to, or it will still vent over!

[Jennifer]

3 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

What we need to know also is the rating of the PRV, (which as it has just been replaced should be "knowable".

But if your pump is capable of 2.4 bar (about 35psi). we already know that the expansion vessel needs to be pre-charged to more than that.  Assuming PRV is 3 bar, I'd try (say) 2.6 bar for the pressure on the EV (or 38 psi, if your pump gauge doesn't show bar)>

Your PRV musn't be less than you set the EV pressure to, or it will still vent over!

The PRV is 1 -3 bar is that what you mean 

[alan_fincher]

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

2.4 bar is an awfully high pressure pump to be using with a calorifier probably limited to 3 bar.

It's a HotPot which I think is just Surecal / SureJust carrying a different brand.

If so these now come with a 4 bar PRV, so I think they must rate the calorifier at more than 4 bar.

[WotEver]

34 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

How do we know it is not set too low?

Good point, we don’t of course. 

[alan_fincher]

1 minute ago, Jennifer said:

The PRV is 1 -3 bar is that what you mean 

If you mean 1 to 3 bar, it's can't be, as they are specified with a value, not a range of values.

Looking at the specs, I suspect hat it might have had was 4 bar, and the replacement should have been the same.  If it is now 3 bar that is OK, but that's about the least it can be with the pump you say you have got.

[Jennifer]

1 minute ago, alan_fincher said:

It's a HotPot which I think is just Surecal / SureJust carrying a different brand.

If so these now come with a 4 bar PRV, so I think they must rate the calorifier at more than 4 bar.

It states surecal on the original paperwork 

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

It's a HotPot which I think is just Surecal / SureJust carrying a different brand.

If so these now come with a 4 bar PRV, so I think they must rate the calorifier at more than 4 bar.

 

 

The PRV rating is always marked on it, usually on the red plastic handle/cap. 

 

We need Jen to have a look and post the actual pressure rating written on the cap of hers, regardless of what the manual says it ought to be.

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman
Add a bit

[alan_fincher]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

Good point, we don’t of course. 

As accumulators and EVs are effectively the same thing, and accumulators are pre-charged at much lower pressures than EVs, if it has been supplied charged suitable for use as an accumulator, it will not work as an EV, until pressure increased.

I'm slightly concerned that Jennifer says only a 5 litre EV has now been fitted.  From my memory the maths actually indicates a theoretical need for larger than this.  I think 8 litres is the usual recommendation on a 55 litre calorifier.

[Jennifer]

3 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

If you mean 1 to 3 bar, it's can't be, as they are specified with a value, not a range of values.

Looking at the specs, I suspect hat it might have had was 4 bar, and the replacement should have been the same.  If it is now 3 bar that is OK, but that's about the least it can be with the pump you say you have got.

Ok this is not good the idiot that changed the PRV changed it from a 4 bar to a 1-3 bar from screwfix I have the original one here and doubt there was ever anything wrong with it

1 minute ago, alan_fincher said:

As accumulators and EVs are effectively the same thing, and accumulators are pre-charged at much lower pressures than EVs, if it has been supplied charged suitable for use as an accumulator, it will not work as an EV, until pressure increased.

I'm slightly concerned that Jennifer says only a 5 litre EV has now been fitted.  From my memory the maths actually indicates a theoretical need for larger than this.  I think 8 litres is the usual recommendation on a 55 litre calorifier.

Surecal recommend that size for 55 litres I rung them 

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Ok this is not good the idiot that changed the PRV changed it from a 4 bar to a 1-3 bar from screwfix

 

As other have said, there is no such thing. 

 

I just had a look on screwfix site to see if I can spot one so labeled, so we can figure out exactly what it actually is. But there isn't one, they don't even state the release pressure of their PRVs! 

 

Can you look on the cap of it please, and tell us what it says?

 

Edit to add:

Oh hang on, in the "more info" bit, they do state drivel like 1-3 bar. This 6 bar PRV one below for example, is specified in the writings as 1-6 bar. Meaningless drivel, it clearly states 6 bar on the cap!

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/pressure-relief-valve-x/8131v

 

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman

[alan_fincher]

7 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Ok this is not good the idiot that changed the PRV changed it from a 4 bar to a 1-3 bar from screwfix I have the original one here and doubt there was ever anything wrong with it

This rings a bell with me, as I recall trying to look at PRVs sold by Screwfix.

A standard PRV of the type fitted to boat calorifiers has just one pressure specified - that at which it opens.  I recall that Screwfix describe some with a range, but that has to be an error, as they are in no way adjustable.

I would not buy a PRV from Screwfix, simply because the descriptions given don't correctly describe what is being sold!

 

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

As other have said, there is no such thing. 

 

I just had a look on screwfix site to see if I can spot one so labeled, so we can figure out exactly what it actually is. But there isn't one, they don't even state the release pressure of their PRVs! 

 

Can you look on the cap of it please, and tell us what it says?

 

Edit to add:

Oh hang on, in the "more info" bit, they do state drivel like 1-3 bar. This 6 bar PRV one below is specified in the writings as 1-6 bar. Meaningless drivel, it clearly states 6 bar on the cap!

 

This actually appears in the comments section for one of the Screwfix PRVs....
 

 

Quote

 

" The description says 'Working pressure: 1-3bar.' which makes it sound adjustable ..... it is not.

It's 3 bar fixed. "

 

 

[Jennifer]

15 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

The PRV rating is always marked on it, usually on the red plastic handle/cap. 

 

We need Jen to have a look and post the actual pressure rating written on the cap of hers, regardless of what the manual says it ought to be.

 

 

 

Just looked it is 3 bar the old one is 4 bar