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Calorifier leaking problem


Jennifer

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Hi would be grateful for any advice on this.

 

We have a relatively new calorifier installed a 55L hotpot .  After a relatively long trip we noticed that the pressure release valve is dripping water onto the floor of the engine, my husband thought it might be the release valve so changed it but the same thing keeps happening as soon as either the engine or immersion starts heating water and not when cold.  What we did not realise until last night is that the person that installed it had not put on a accumulator tank so we now think that as soon as there is expansion, water is releasing onto the floor as there is no tank to allow for expansion.  Would that be a correct assumption or does anyone know if we are missing something ?

 

Apparently it is normal not to have one when I spoke to the person who installed the calorifier and water system but I find that hard to believe and am wondering if anyone knows more about this to point us in the right direction 

 

Thanks

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48 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Apparently it is normal not to have one when I spoke to the person who installed the calorifier and water system

IT is certainly not unusual, I think every boat I've had has an 'overflow' overboard from the calorifier to allow for expansion.

Current boat calorifier has its own bilge.

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

IT is certainly not unusual, I think every boat I've had has an 'overflow' overboard from the calorifier to allow for expansion.

Current boat calorifier has its own bilge.

Thanks do you think attaching a regular hose to the valve and out overboard would suffice or is there a more suitable sort of pipe that could be used.  Am thinking about a short term solution until we get an expansion tank.  Thanks

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Strictly I think you mean "no expansion vessel", rather than "no accumulator tank".

Although both may be physically identical looking bits of hardware, an accumulator is something fitted in the cold water line to provide more even flow from the pump, and prevent pump cycling, whereas an expansion vessel, (EV), is fitted to the hot water outlet of the calorifier, and is, as you correctly suggest, to take up excess water caused by expansion on heating, and hence stop it being forced out the PR
To me the HotPot calorifiers appear to be identical to the SureJust/SureCal ones, and I suspect they are, just being marketed by some outlets under a different brand.

If what you have is effectively a SureJust one, then they clearly state they must have an expansion vessel on the hot water side, or the warranty is invalidated. (These calorifiers incorporate a fairly unobvious non-return valve, so water can't be forced back into the cold system, as it expands, so any accumulator on that cannot in any way act in lieu of an expansion vessel.)

For a 55 litre tank, the EV should be a surprisingly large volume, maybe 8 or 10 litres.  This may be difficult to find space for, depending on how and were your calorifier is installed.

If you have been told you don't need an EV, but the calorifier plumbing contains a non return valve (NRV), as I'm pretty sure it will, you have ben misinformed.

 

Edited by alan_fincher
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11 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Thanks do you think attaching a regular hose to the valve and out overboard would suffice or is there a more suitable sort of pipe that could be used.  Am thinking about a short term solution until we get an expansion tank.  Thanks

Mine just has a piece of copper pipe from the top leading into a clear PVC hose-pipe (you can see it running down the LH side)

You need to it have a 'fall' so maybe put a bucket next to the cauliflower and the end of the hose into the bucket.

It is not a huge amount of water, if we have the immersion on full-time for a couple of weeks we maybe get 5 litres.

 

 

 

CAM00321.jpg

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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11 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Strictly I think you mean "no expansion vessel", rather than "no accumulator tank".

Although both may be physically identical looking bits of hardware, an accumulator is something fitted in the cold water line to provide more even flow from the pump, and prevent pump cycling, whereas an expansion vessel, (EV), is fitted to the hot water outlet of the calorifier, and is, as you correctly suggest, to take up excess water caused by expansion on heating, and hence stop it being forced out the PR
To me the HotPot calorifiers appear to be identical to the SureJust/SureCal ones, and I suspect they are, just being marketed by some outlets under a different brand.

If what you have is effectively a SureJust one, then they clearly state they must have an expansion vessel on the hot water side, or the warranty is invalidated. (These calorifiers incorporate a fairly unobvious non-return valve, so water can't be forced back into the cold system, as it expands, so any accumulator on that cannot in any way act in lieu of an expansion vessel.)

For a 55 litre tank, the EV should be a surprisingly large volume, maybe 8 or 10 litres.  This may be difficult to find space for, depending on how and were your calorifier is installed.

If you have been told you don't need an EV, but the calorifier plumbing contains a non return valve (NRV), as I'm pretty sure it will, you have ben misinformed.

 

Hi Alan yes sorry that is what I mean expansion vessel.  It is a SureCal hotpot.  There is space for an expansion vessel I think this is a case of the person installing it, supposedly knowing what they were doing did not bother to fit one when he should of knowing that we would not know until there was a problem due to lack of expertise in this area.  However we know now so can resolve it.

 

Can anyone on here recommend an honest person that could fit one of these on the Thames near Teddington, I say honest as unfortunately we have come across a lot of dishonest people in our journey with this boat and had our fair share of being ripped off !!

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18 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Can anyone on here recommend an honest person that could fit one of these on the Thames near Teddington,

I wouldn't fit one on the Thames, it would have to be pretty big to cope:)

 

Sorry, sorry, I couldn't help it....I'm trying to mend my ways, honest!

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4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I wouldn't fit one on the Thames, it would have to be pretty big to cope:)

 

Sorry, sorry, I couldn't help it....I'm trying to mend my ways, honest!

I don't think it would be of much assistance, the thermal expansion of the Thames will be pretty small (unless you have a particularly big immersion heater).

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25 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Can anyone on here recommend an honest person that could fit one of these...

Do you not have any DIY skills at all?  I’m not being rude, simply asking the question. The reason for my question is that fitting an expansion vessel requires nothing more than fitting a T into the hot water outlet and piping that to the vessel; a very simple plumbing job for even a DIY novice. 

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4 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Do you not have any DIY skills at all?  I’m not being rude, simply asking the question. The reason for my question is that fitting an expansion vessel requires nothing more than fitting a T into the hot water outlet and piping that to the vessel; a very simple plumbing job for even a DIY novice. 

I personally am not that good however my husband will probably have a go at it but wanted to know if someone knew someone in case he had any issues as he would not of done it before,

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2 hours ago, Jennifer said:

I personally am not that good however my husband will probably have a go at it but wanted to know if someone knew someone in case he had any issues as he would not of done it before,

I fitted one this year and found it simple to do as all the fittings were supplied.

Edited by Pie Eater
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Not having an expansion vessel and relying on the pressure release valve to dump the excess pressure eventually leads to a failed PRV, they are not designed to be used this way.

If you have plastic push fit plumbing you can fit a tee anywhere on the hot pipes with the vessel connected there with a short length of pipe as is convenient. Easy diy stuff.

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3 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Not having an expansion vessel and relying on the pressure release valve to dump the excess pressure eventually leads to a failed PRV, they are not designed to be used this way.

If you have plastic push fit plumbing you can fit a tee anywhere on the hot pipes with the vessel connected there with a short length of pipe as is convenient. Easy diy stuff.

It will also greatly reduce the (fatigue) life of the calorifier which is much more expensive to fix.

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If you do try DIY....

Many expansion vessels will have a parallel brass screw thread for the connection, often 3/4" BSP.

 

Do not try sealing something onto the parallel threads - you need a tap connector with an inbuilt washer, so the seal is against the flat circular end of the connector.

it's often easiest to use a flexible one, allowing simplified mounting of the EV, with no precision required.


If teeing in to 15mm plastic plumbing, something like this, along with an appropriate tee and short length of pipe.

2475G_P&$prodImageMedium$

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9 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Thanks everyone will give it a go myself I was just looking for the tank I need and I understand I need an 8 litre for a 55 litre hotpot does that seem correct was looking at surecal products 

 

Where are you? I have a new one you can have FOC if you are able to collect it from me on the K&A.

 

I bought it for the owners of BOURNEMOUTH who rather unsportingly ordered it from me then refused to return my calls to arrange to fit it. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, rusty69 said:

I wouldn't fit one on the Thames, it would have to be pretty big to cope:)

The Environment Agency always drain the Thames down if cold weather is forecast. It is much cheaper than leaving the immersion heater on all Winter. The threat of ice expansion cracking the river bank isn't worth the risk of leaving the river full during a frost.

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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50 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Where are you? I have a new one you can have FOC if you are able to collect it from me on the K&A.

 

I bought it for the owners of BOURNEMOUTH who rather unsportingly ordered it from me then refused to return my calls to arrange to fit it. 

 

 

Hi I will pm you thanks

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17 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Not having an expansion vessel and relying on the pressure release valve to dump the excess pressure eventually leads to a failed PRV, they are not designed to be used this way.

If you have plastic push fit plumbing you can fit a tee anywhere on the hot pipes with the vessel connected there with a short length of pipe as is convenient. Easy diy stuff.

 

On my boat it lead to the stainless steel Surecal calorifier failing and a £700 bill for its replacement. Fortunately it happened to the previous owner, but he didn't learn his lesson, so I fitted one once I bought the boat.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi everyone and merry Christmas!

 

We have had an expansion tank fitted now however we are still getting a small amount of water from the PRV on the calorifier when heating up.

 

Is this normal to happen even after an expansion tank is fitted.  The PRV valve was changed as well so know that is not causing it.

 

Very grateful for any advice on this 

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14 minutes ago, Jennifer said:

Hi everyone and merry Christmas!

 

We have had an expansion tank fitted now however we are still getting a small amount of water from the PRV on the calorifier when heating up.

 

Is this normal to happen even after an expansion tank is fitted.  The PRV valve was changed as well so know that is not causing it.

 

Very grateful for any advice on this 

 

The new expansion tank is not working.

 

Probably charged to the wrong pressure.

 

 

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