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longstreath

Facebook Post - Stolen Boat

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8 minutes ago, Emma Smith said:

Isn't it a worry how poorly controlled boat ownership is/ or how easily it can be circumnavigated...  it makes me anxious as I'm planning to move onto an nb next spring

For some reason the "inland waterways" is very 'anti-paperwork', anti-'control' and anti 'big brother'.

 

The lumpy water / coastal boating fraternity are very demanding for proof of ownership, VAT certification, historical bills of sales, registration documents etc etc etc.

Without them it is very difficult to sell a boat.

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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

For some reason the "inland waterways" is very 'anti-paperwork', anti-'control' and anti 'big brother'.

 

The lumpy water / coastal boating fraternity are very demanding for proof of ownership, VAT certification, historical bills of sales, registration documents etc etc etc.

Without them it is very difficult to sell a boat.

It seems the responsibility sits with the buyer to be robust in purchasing process re assurance and documentation. Personally, I'd walk away from anything I wasn't comfortable with.

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When I have bought the 3 boats I have owned they all had a good trail of evidence as to who owned them, even the one that was ex broads. The problem is I suppose it could be all forged.................................

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31 minutes ago, Emma Smith said:

It seems the responsibility sits with the buyer to be robust in purchasing process re assurance and documentation. Personally, I'd walk away from anything I wasn't comfortable with.

It is actually the responsibility of the seller to 'lodge' all of the "Ships Documents" with the broker handling the sale :

Typically 

 

The ABYA Brokers’ Code of Practice includes the following:
 The broker shall collect all available title documentation from the Seller which should include, RCD compliance, evidence of VAT status, registration, outstanding finance, Bills of Sale from previous owners and Builder’s Certificate. The broker should arrange for a new Bill of Sale from Seller to the Buyer to be completed and passed with all title documentation upon completion.
 The broker should provide a Sale and Purchase Agreement for use by the Seller and Buyer. Amendments to the Agreement should be agreed and initialled by both parties.
 The broker should check as far as possible whether there are any outstanding mortgages, liens or bills relating to the boat and should settle these from the completion monies before sending the balance to the Seller.
 The broker should send completion monies to the Seller as soon as practicable once the funds have cleared and all paperwork has been completed.

 

If it is a 'private' sale / purchase then the documentation should be made available for inspection by the prospective buyer.

 

Things like Customs & Excise VAT certificates, RCD Compliance certificates, Original Builders certificate, signed and stamped Bills-Of-Sale are all difficult to forge.

 

 

This full paperwork trail rarely happens with Inland waterways craft.

The best you can hope for is that there are some letters from C&RT (etc) Licence renewals, invoices for repairs, painting or maintenance etc, and that the name on them matches up with the name on the sellers passport / driving licence, and that the photo on the passport / driving licence matches the person you are talking to.

 

Following this guidance may help you check the title.

 

https://www.rya.org.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/legal/Web Documents/Legal Leaflets/Members Advice/Title Check/TITLE CHECK.pdf

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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If its not licensed for CRT waters I am surprised it hasn't been picked up by one of the license checkers by now

 

Edited by ditchcrawler

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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is actually the responsibility of the seller to 'lodge' all of the "Ships Documents" with the broker handling the sale :

Typically 

 

The ABYA Brokers’ Code of Practice includes the following:
 The broker shall collect all available title documentation from the Seller which should include, RCD compliance, evidence of VAT status, registration, outstanding finance, Bills of Sale from previous owners and Builder’s Certificate. The broker should arrange for a new Bill of Sale from Seller to the Buyer to be completed and passed with all title documentation upon completion.
 The broker should provide a Sale and Purchase Agreement for use by the Seller and Buyer. Amendments to the Agreement should be agreed and initialled by both parties.
 The broker should check as far as possible whether there are any outstanding mortgages, liens or bills relating to the boat and should settle these from the completion monies before sending the balance to the Seller.
 The broker should send completion monies to the Seller as soon as practicable once the funds have cleared and all paperwork has been completed.

 

If it is a 'private' sale / purchase then the documentation should be made available for inspection by the prospective buyer.

 

Things like Customs & Excise VAT certificates, RCD Compliance certificates, Original Builders certificate, signed and stamped Bills-Of-Sale are all difficult to forge.

 

 

This full paperwork trail rarely happens with Inland waterways craft.

The best you can hope for is that there are some letters from C&RT (etc) Licence renewals, invoices for repairs, painting or maintenance etc, and that the name on them matches up with the name on the sellers passport / driving licence, and that the photo on the passport / driving licence matches the person you are talking to.

 

Following this guidance may help you check the title.

 

https://www.rya.org.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/legal/Web Documents/Legal Leaflets/Members Advice/Title Check/TITLE CHECK.pdf

Yes, I meant the responsibility sits with buyer for Inland Waterways purchases. Thank you for the link.

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Just now, Emma Smith said:

Yes, I meant the responsibility sits with buyer for Inland Waterways purchases. Thank you for the link.

I disagree, the seller should provide the evidence themselves as part of the 'sales details', if they don't then they are hiding something, or they don't have them. or they don't own the boat.

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10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Lemme guess which boat it was....

 

 

 

You can certainly have a guess, but since I'm not seriously looking until Spring, it wouldn't be the best use of your time.

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I disagree, the seller should provide the evidence themselves as part of the 'sales details', if they don't then they are hiding something, or they don't have them. or they don't own the boat.

I don't disagree; they should but they're not compelled to do so. A naive/ romantic purchaser may not appreciate the need to be asking/ checking for such history/ documentation.

Edited by Emma Smith
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21 minutes ago, peterboat said:

When I have bought the 3 boats I have owned they all had a good trail of evidence as to who owned them, even the one that was ex broads. The problem is I suppose it could be all forged.................................

true... but a lot of effort. Do you think the unscrupulous would bother to make the effort? Or just trust that a 'rose tinted' or naive buyer comes their way, who doesn't think to ask/ look for a paper trail. Maybe it depends on the value vs effort to forge/scam.

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5 minutes ago, Emma Smith said:

You can certainly have a guess, but since I'm not seriously looking until Spring, it wouldn't be the best use of your time.

 

True.

 

A bit like looking for a boat that went missing two months ago with no explanation of why it took two months to notice it was gone, then refuse to answer the stream of resulting questions, labelling them as 'speculation'. 

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9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

True.

 

A bit like looking for a boat that went missing two months ago with no explanation of why it took two months to notice it was gone, then refuse to answer the stream of resulting questions, labelling them as 'speculation'. 

Catch up - answers above. 

 

I'm here to attempt to track a boat for a friend two months after it was stolen, long shot as it may be. Your suspicions aren't really relevant to the matter. If the post is annoying you, maybe move along to something more satisfying.

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4 minutes ago, Emma Smith said:

Catch up - answers above. 

 

I'm here to attempt to track a boat for a friend two months after it was stolen, long shot as it may be. Your suspicions aren't really relevant to the matter. If the post is annoying you, maybe move along to something more satisfying.

 

Its not annoying me, it just looks like you are swerving the questions and not being straight with the forum.

 

If you level and answer the questions properly there is a HUGE resource available to you. But as it is you are projecting the impression you are hiding something, and people here are holding back.

 

That's all. It is up to you. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is not recognised, or shown, as an EA registered boat.

Probably not -but would any boat if you searched using a CRT number and no name?

Always thought that stretch it was moored on was beyond EA jurastriction anyhow. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Its not annoying me, it just looks like you are swerving the questions and not being straight with the forum.

 

If you level and answer the questions properly there is a HUGE resource available to you. But as it is you are projecting the impression you are hiding something, and people here are holding back.

 

That's all. It is up to you. 

 

 

Interpretations such as suggesting a poster is swerving/ not being straight/ hiding something are the readers' projections.  It is telling of the reader, not the poster.

 

As mentioned, relevant answers given above. 

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1 hour ago, Emma Smith said:

Interpretations such as suggesting a poster is swerving/ not being straight/ hiding something are the readers' projections.  It is telling of the reader, not the poster.

 

As mentioned, relevant answers given above. 

I have no dog in this fight and readily recognise that some posters here can come across as irritatingly curious about points which you may feel are irrelevant.

 

BUT the members have found boats in the past and the site is potentially very useful in recovering your friend's boat. It would be worthwhile to supply a detailed description of the boat and also, given the rather unfortunate start to the thread, an explanation of the circumstances surrounding the theft.

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This was moored on the pontoon at Mid Summer meadow a couple of weeks ago, it will not be registered with Crt as it spent years on the moorings at B+Q which is not a recognised navigation to EA or Crt.
Was in local paper not so long back when it sunk and spent a while underwater. 

Personally don’t think this is a straight forward ‘Stolen’ boat case there will be more to the story.

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8 hours ago, Emma Smith said:

A naive/ romantic purchaser... 

It strikes me that's about 2/3 of buyers!  Clearly not you though Emma; good luck with your search once you start in earnest. :)

 

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26 minutes ago, ditch paddler said:

This was moored on the pontoon at Mid Summer meadow a couple of weeks ago, it will not be registered with Crt as it spent years on the moorings at B+Q which is not a recognised navigation to EA or Crt.
Was in local paper not so long back when it sunk and spent a while underwater. 

Personally don’t think this is a straight forward ‘Stolen’ boat case there will be more to the story.

 

Well this is getting curiouser and curiouser. I hope we find out the eventual outcome.

 

Isn't the Mid Summer Meadow mooring just a short distance away?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, longstreath said:

I hope we find out the eventual outcome.

Don't hold your breath.  I can only remember one "stolen" boat saga which seemed to be an actual theft by an unrelated criminal and, following recovery (found by members here iirc) we were unable to have the detail reported here by the owners due to the ongoing police investigation. I may have missed it, but I don't think we ever got that information in the end, which make one wonder a bit... 

 

I take heart from all this - actual boat thefts are much rarer than they might otherwise might appear. That shouldn't stop us from helping Emma here if we can, though it does explain the cautious approach.

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14 minutes ago, longstreath said:

 

Well this is getting curiouser and curiouser. I hope we find out the eventual outcome.

 

Isn't the Mid Summer Meadow mooring just a short distance away?

 

 

About mile and and half.

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40 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Don't hold your breath.  I can only remember one "stolen" boat saga which seemed to be an actual theft by an unrelated criminal and, following recovery (found by members here iirc) we were unable to have the detail reported here by the owners due to the ongoing police investigation. I may have missed it, but I don't think we ever got that information in the end, which make one wonder a bit...

I take heart from all this - actual boat thefts are much rarer than they might otherwise might appear. That shouldn't stop us from helping Emma here if we can, though it does explain the cautious approach.

I think in the time I've been assiciated with the forum maybe as many as 3 reported thefts have proved to be just that, with no further back story about the theft.

 

I bet given time I could find ten times that number where it has not been a straight theft, and the majority of those were not a theft at all.

This one really doesn't ring true, and the onus is firmly on those telling us it is a genuine theft to convince us of that.

 

Me, I'm certainly not convinced yet.

 

Without going back through 70 plus posts have we even yet been told which Police force, or why the alleged crime reference doesn't apparently match usual formats?

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11 hours ago, Emma Smith said:

Just heard back from my friend, said he spoke to some fella (wasn't sure of name) at the Nton floor flight - apparently he helped the boat through for cash. 

That's him...

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