I seek advice on which boat type for live aboard permanent cruising European waterways.

[Carlito]

Hello all!

 

So i currently live in a converted Luton/box van and have done for 3 years now.  The living space is about 2m wide, 2.5m high and 5m long.  I don't have many possessions and it does me fine! :) I spent most of last year travelling in my van around Europe and loved seeing different countries/cultures/everything.  I'm currently researching canal boats and i was set on a narrowboat when one friend suggested a widebeam as i can take it to Europe, and another suggested a lagoon Catermaran as they're roomy and hold value. So i'd like to travel around and see lots of countries, even if it is travelling very slowly!  But now i don't know what type of boat to look for, so i thought i'd ask you lot.  Lucky you! :)

 

 

 

I want to:

 

Easily/safely navigate European waterways and hopefully spend a few years travelling around Europe before i have to come back and work.

 

Safely have a mixed fuel stove onboard as i've heard mixed feeling about GRP and mixed fuel stoves.  I want as little electric reliance as possible as until yesterday i was getting  90-200w of solar a day for an entire week.  This is with 810 watts of panels on my roof.  It's just been very bad for solar, and winter can always be that way.  So i want my heating solution to be foolproof and run all day and night if i want to!

 

Have a suitable boat and not find out the boat i bought really struggles/is dangerous in some situations.

 

 

 

Other questions which may factor into the boat type!

Does the length of a narrowboat/widebeam affect its ability to navigate European waters, as in is a 30ft as stable as a 50ft?

 

Headspace in the types of boats.  I'm 6'5 but i'm fairly resigned to the fact that i'l have to duck slightly, is there a type of boat which is kinder to tall folks?

 

Frozen waterways.  Narrow and widebeam boats can tolerate being frozen in, but can GRP and any other types of boats you may think are suitable tolerate it easily and without damage?

 

And i'd like to know the security value of each boat type.  Narrow/widebeams look like they're somewhat secured when you lock the doors, but can a GRP and other types be secured as well (they look very open and unsecure)?

 

 

Budget  Hmm, well...I was set on spending 30k and getting a nice enough narrowboat as i was thinking i don't need a 60ft+ one.  But if i need a widebeam, well the cheapest i've seen so far is 60k and there's not many at that price.  I know GRP are cheaper than narrowboats. So budget is flexible, but the lower the better. 60k(ish) would hopefully be the maximum, but i want to weigh up the best boat type with budget and everything else and see what happens.

 

So if you wish to offer some advice and boat type, you're more than welcome!

 

Also does anyone have any links for UK and European waterway maps?  I've tried but only found very vague UK ones and even worse ones for France.  None for other countries.

[OldGoat]

Off the top of my head -

NBs are 'necessary' for the best (?) parts of the UK - or at lest getting to them.

Sur la continent  - then make no real sense as all ? of their waterways are broad  'cos 'they' have bir rivers.

 

I wouldn't waste my money  on a boat designed for the UK narow stuff, but get something that is more suited to 'their' environment. From my totally inexperienced view a Duth Tjalk  type would be more comfortable and less expensive.

However I'm probably talking out of my fundament, and if you're luck an h'expert may be along shortly

The UK network is a shambles  - whereas methinks the European canal system is quite different.

FWIW many years ago I did visit the Rennes area in a 10' NB type ( for an MB and Y article) and whereas it was great - it really was  not the best boat to spend a lot of time over there...

[Dav and Pen]

For European waterways narrowboats are not ideal especially on the big rivers although of course there are some over there.

in the Netherlands there are lots of steel cruisers for sale and you should be able to pick one up for the money you are talking about. Small barges for this money could well be a money pit although generally the Dutch look after their boats. There a lots of brokers web sites you could look at.

 

[Bee]

At that budget you do have some options. What I would do (not always the best plan!) is to buy a boat in Holland. Look in Boten te Koop and see what looks interesting

Most boats in Holland are steel. the cheaper end of the market tend to be Westlanders and similar, Kagenaars, Praams and the like, these are not great big barges, the dutch think of them as punts but they tend to be cheap, easy to crane out, not hard to repair in case of corrosion and can make nice little homes, don't think of crossing the channel though. Small Tjalks and similar can be really lovely boats, great big versions can be very nice but, as always, big boats cost big money and big maintainance bills. Luxemotors and bigger barges cost even more and, of course the bigger the boat the bigger the licence fees, mooring fees - everything. I would avoid cruisers, they can be great in summer, mot so good in winter. Be careful, steel rusts, plating can be thin, get a proper hull survey, I would buy a narrowboat without a survey as I have some confidence in some boaty things. I would not buy a Dutch boat without a survey, there is just too much experience needed, in my case 40 years is not enough.

   However, you do have enough money to do it so go for it (carefully)

Edited November 29, 2019 by Bee
missed a bit

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, Carlito said:

i was set on a narrowboat when one friend suggested a widebeam as i can take it to Europe, and another suggested a lagoon Catermaran as they're roomy and hold value.

If you are looking to spend £30k then you can instantly dismiss any widebeam and discount any 'quality' narrowboat, £30k will get you just above 'the bottom of the market' (£15k - £20k) narrowboat.

If you are looking at a Lagoon Cat then you need to loom nearer £150k - £250k depending on age and condition.

 

I have a Lagoon (see my Avatar) so do have some experience of them.

 

They are too large for much of the European waterways - even the 'big' Canal Du-Midi. They would be OK but not particularly practical for the commercial Rivers like the Rhine and the Rhone

 

At 23 foot beam they are unable to use the UK Canal system of which much is only usable by 7 foot wide boats.

 

 

My Lagoon :

 

 

 

[Carlito]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If you are looking to spend £30k then you can instantly dismiss any widebeam and discount any 'quality' narrowboat, £30k will get you just above 'the bottom of the market' (£15k - £20k) narrowboat.

If you are looking at a Lagoon Cat then you need to loom nearer £150k - £250k depending on age and condition.

 

I have a Lagoon (see my Avatar) so do have some experience of them.

 

They are too large for much of the European waterways - even the 'big' Canal Du-Midi. They would be OK but not particularly practical for the commercial Rivers like the Rhine and the Rhone

 

At 23 foot beam they are unable to use the UK Canal system of which much is only usable by 7 foot wide boats.

 

 

My Lagoon :

 

 

 

Lovely boat you have there!  And i think i'll dismiss cats then.  And if it is a widebeam, then i think i'll have to push the 60k budget, although hopefully not too much.  Though i shall also look into the Dutch Tjalk boats previously mentioned aswell!

[Alan de Enfield]

52 minutes ago, Carlito said:

Lovely boat you have there!  And i think i'll dismiss cats then.  And if it is a widebeam, then i think i'll have to push the 60k budget, although hopefully not too much.  Though i shall also look into the Dutch Tjalk boats previously mentioned aswell!

I'd suggest that you'd need to push the widebeam budget up to ~ £100k or you'll be buying something at the lowe end of the scale and potentially something that needs lots spending on it.

 

The suggestion to look at / buy a Dutch boat is a good one :

 

1) They are built to be suitable for the European waterways

2) They have the bollards in the correct place to work in locks

3) They are considerably cheaper than UK widebeams

 

Dutch boats tend to be built of thinner steel than UK boats and you would need to have a GOOD surveyor who is experienced in that type of boat. A UK surveyor would probably 'fail' many of them as being uninsurable due to thin base metal.

 

Sea-Going steel boats are often built of 5mm or 6mm steel, but UK narrowboats / widebeams are typically 10mm or 12mm. The UK inland waterways insurance companies have decided that anything around 4mm thick is 'uninsurable'. (Obviously based on the fact that the canal boats have a harder life than sea-going boats) .

[Carlito]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'd suggest that you'd need to push the widebeam budget up to ~ £100k or you'll be buying something at the lowe end of the scale and potentially something that needs lots spending on it.

 

The suggestion to look at / buy a Dutch boat is a good one :

 

1) They are built to be suitable for the European waterways

2) They have the bollards in the correct place to work in locks

3) They are considerably cheaper than UK widebeams

 

Dutch boats tend to be built of thinner steel than UK boats and you would need to have a GOOD surveyor who is experienced in that type of boat. A UK surveyor would probably 'fail' many of them as being uninsurable due to thin base metal.

 

Sea-Going steel boats are often built of 5mm or 6mm steel, but UK narrowboats / widebeams are typically 10mm or 12mm. The UK inland waterways insurance companies have decided that anything around 4mm thick is 'uninsurable'. (Obviously based on the fact that the canal boats have a harder life than sea-going boats) .

I'm currently researching the differences between UK widebeam and Dutch barges and will be doing a lot more.  

 

And that's a heck of a difference in thickness between the two boats.    I do see myself spending at least 2-3 years, and hopefully more, abroad.  I would be bringing it back to the UK though when i need to work again to top up funds.

 

Are knocks to the hull a lot more common in UK canals than they are abroad?  I've seen a fair few YouTubers and read a lot of narrowboaters and it seems they do happen, especially with holiday boaters/newer pilots/captains.  Even 10-12mm doesn't sound thick enough when another boat ploughs into you, as that's a lot of force hitting in a very small area.

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Carlito said:

I would be bringing it back to the UK though when i need to work again to top up funds.

 

In which case you need a boat that will comply with the BSSC (Boat safety Scheme) which a Dutch boat will not. It will need modifying so allow for that in your budget.

 

13 minutes ago, Carlito said:

Are knocks to the hull a lot more common in UK canals than they are abroad?

No its just the stupid UK insurers that think a 'thin' steel boat is a higher risk. A narrowboat / widebeam will have several tons of concrete ballast in the bottom, one way to make building easier is to use steel rather than concrete and one way to do this is to use a thick steel plate for the 'base plate' In the '80s 3.75mm was not unknown, 6mm was common but as the years have gone by 'thick is better' My 1998 narrowboat had a 13mm base plate.

 

13 minutes ago, Carlito said:

Even 10-12mm doesn't sound thick enough when another boat ploughs into you, as that's a lot of force hitting in a very small area.

A car body panel is typically 0.6mm so a boat with 6mm sides is 10x thicker than a car and its base plate is 20x thicker.

Despite what you may see / read boating is not 'an impact sport' and boat collisions are infrequent. If you happen to hit the bank or a lock then that is just bad seamanship and 'your own fault'

 

 

The steel used in the Ferret armoured car varied between 6mm and 16mm (depending on area of the vehicle). Steel is tough stuff !!

 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[blackrose]

51 minutes ago, Carlito said:

 I do see myself spending at least 2-3 years, and hopefully more, abroad.  I would be bringing it back to the UK though when i need to work again to top up funds.

 

Perhaps you mentioned it but I can't see it in your posts: How do you plan to bring the boat back here? Across the channel or hauled out and by truck? The former needs a seaworthy boat and careful planning while the latter will cost you about £6K each way. If you want a boat for European waterways buy it in France, Belgium, Holland, etc, not here.

[Carlito]

9 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Perhaps you mentioned it but I can't see it in your posts: How do you plan to bring the boat back here? Across the channel or hauled out and by truck? The former needs a seaworthy boat and careful planning while the latter will cost you about £6K each way. If you want a boat for European waterways buy it in France, Belgium, Holland, etc, not here.

Oh boy, i don't think i'd ever sail across!  Maybe if i had lots of experience, and if i did i'd still want the advice of experts/an escort.   I was going to say it costs a couple of thousand, but i'd just have it shipped across and then just trucked to a suitable canal/river here and pay for mooring until i've got enough money to go off again!  And then i saw your 6k?!  I heard 2!  Well i guess it's a good job i don't plan to do it often.  I'd have to see if it'd be cheaper to leave it abroad or bring it back here and not have to rent/lodge as that'd cost a few thousand each year on its own.

 

It definitely seems like Dutch barge is the most suitable boat, then the widebeam.  And if they're a lot cheaper than a widebeam, even better!  

[Boaty Jo]

I put this together a few years ago for someone.

Pretty much up to date but it may give you food for thought...

http://abargeatlarge.co.uk/articles/Looking for a barge/index.html

[Athy]

Have you considered an ex-hire pénichette? The 930 and 935 models about 30 feet long by 10 feet wide, are well equipped and would be comfortable for one person. Solid GRP construction and quite manoeuvrable. One problem might be heating; they have blown-air heating, I'm not sure if this would be man enough to keep the interior cosy during a cold winter.

   Locaboat, who build and operate them, usually have a few for sale in France at about £30,000 - see their web site.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Athy

[Dr Bob]

11 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

 

Not a fish in sight!

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

 

Not a fish in sight!

They have 'tanked off'

[Dav and Pen]

Although the Tjalk and Aak type barges were  built of what is now considered “thin” steel most of them were  built of proper ship building steel not the modern mild steel that has lots of scrap in it. My Hagenaar barge was originally a sailing barge as were the Tjalk and when it was surveyed for me prior to completion of the purchase (at my expense) I was very surprised to see measurement of 4.5mm and 4mm which coming from Narrowboats I thought to thin. The surveyor said that as built 80 years ago it would have been 5.5mm and at 4mm was ok. Anything under could be doubled or if unconverted cut out and replaced .The ribs are much closer together around 400mm apart so the strength of the hull is there. These were mainly cargo carrying barges mine being built for a brick company and had load marks for 55 tones so clearly like narrow boats they were designed for the job.

when these barges were converted to pleasure boats and houseboats many had poured concrete as ballast which is now considered bad practice and some insurance companies do not like it. 
If you buy in Holland or Belgium through a broker a contract is drawn up between the buyer and seller agreeing the price subject to survey and a deposit is paid. If the survey turns up problems the buyer has the option of walking away or the seller has to put it right. It’s more legalistic than here and the brokers have to be licensed and registered.

Theres literally hundreds of small barges for sale but avoid anything over 20meters as another set of regulations apply and cheap barges are unlikely to have a certificate and if they have not got one by the end of this year then the rules change and they will be treated as new boats and need compliant engines.

Good luck and enjoy the hunt it’s well worthwhile 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

45 minutes ago, Dav and Pen said:

Theres literally hundreds of small barges for sale but avoid anything over 20meters as another set of regulations apply and cheap barges are unlikely to have a certificate and if they have not got one by the end of this year then the rules change and they will be treated as new boats and need compliant engines.

Good luck and enjoy the hunt it’s well worthwhile 

Just a suggestion, but as the OP has little knowledge of boats and presumably even less over the European regulations for boats and the owners qualifications, let alone the RCD it may be worth while if you could expand on what you said.

[Dav and Pen]

At present it’s a bit of a minefield for boats plus 20 meters in length or 100 cu meters volume. All of these ships should have had European certificate originally called Triwv but now called Es-trin  by the end of last year, but because there were hundreds who hadn’t and there is a shortage of qualified surveyors the Dutch gave a years extension until end of this year. Any boat that does not have a certificate by then will have to conform to new build specifications which could mean having to have an engine that meets the latest emission regulations and things like position of bulkheads which are specified in the regs but up until now old boats were passed as built. There are no English surveyors approved for this certificate and some of the Dutch ones have been certifying the UK registered boats already on the continent and having the Dutch authority issue the certificate, including for mine.

An Icc is needed by the steerer (owner) and this can be done in the uk as it is issued by the rya. A vhf radio certificate is also necessary as is a ships radio license but this may be already with the boat and if brought in Holland it is best to keep it on the dutch registry.

Sounds difficult so the advice is avoid anything over 20m which does not have a current certificate (they last for 7 years) or buy something under 20m which at present needs no certificate.

Hope that explains a bit more what’s involved.

 

Now off to the Rugby for the big game against Leicester COYS

Edited November 30, 2019 by Dav and Pen
Added

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Dav and Pen said:

Hope that explains a bit more what’s involved.

Would someone taking over a 70 foot boat(from the UK) then require it to be modified and certified to the Dutch requirements ?

Would a 20m UK boat built "post RCD" still require certification or is the Dutch certification  equivalent to the RCD ?

Would a home-built (non RCD) UK boat over 5 years old require Dutch Certification, or would the RCD rules apply ?

[Dav and Pen]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Would someone taking over a 70 foot boat(from the UK) then require it to be modified and certified to the Dutch requirements ?

Would a 20m UK boat built "post RCD" still require certification or is the Dutch certification  equivalent to the RCD ?

Would a home-built (non RCD) UK boat over 5 years old require Dutch Certification, or would the RCD rules apply ?

Any boat over 20m needs the es-trin certificate it’s a eu requirement it’s just that the Dutch are the only ones who would certify boats on other registry’s.

the certificate is in addition to rcd as it imposes equipment such as AIS class A fire extinguishers size, 2 vhf radios etc.

a home built boat will be treated as anew boat from next year.

these rules have been in place since 2011 when we got our first certificate which also requires an out of water survey.

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, Dav and Pen said:

Any boat over 20m needs the es-trin certificate it’s a eu requirement

I don't wish to labour the point if you are busy, but, if it is an EU requirement how come I have never come across it for UK boats in UK waters. ?

If it is an EU requirement surely the UK 'full length' NBs & WBs would be affected.

 

For example - My understanding  is that AIS is not required on 'pleasure' vessels of any size, and only on commercial vessels above certain tonnages.

 

The regulation requires AIS to be fitted aboard all ships of 300 gross tonnage and upwards engaged on international voyages, cargo ships of 500 gross tonnage and upwards not engaged on international voyages and all passenger ships irrespective of size. The requirement became effective for all ships by 31 December 2004.

 

 

A bit of research shows that it should be applicable to ALL EU Inland Waterways - I wonder if the UK canal / river boat builders are aware, or do we have an exemption ?

 

Certainly a 50 foot x 12 foot 'widebeam' would fall foul of the requirements (100m3), a 10 foot x 12 foot may just scrape under.

 

In order to incorporate the ES-TRIN standards developed by CESNI into EU law, a directive which sets out the procedure for the application of uniform standards for inland navigation across Europe was drafted. By 7 October 2018 EU Directive 2016/1629 of 14 September 2016 laying down technical requirements for inland waterway vessels, amending Directive 2009/100/EC and repealing Directive 2006/87/EC should have been brought into force in all addressed EU Member States.

The first ES-TRIN standard 2015/1 adopted by CESNI is incorporated into EU law by the new Directive 2016/1629 and the structure of the new Directive will make the procedure for updating technical requirements quicker as updates will simply require a Commission delegated act. The intention is to update ES-TRIN biennially.

As Directive 2006/87/EC did, Directive 2016/1629 applies to vessels having a length of 20 metres or more (length means the maximum length of the hull in metres excluding rudder and bowsprit); it also applies to vessels for which the product of length, breadth and draught is a volume of 100 cubic metres or more. The Directive is therefore applicable to UK registered recreational craft over 20 metres in length or with a volume over 100m³ which operate on Community inland waterways. The Directive does not apply to seagoing ships which operate or are based on tidal waters or to seagoing ships which operate temporarily on inland waterways provided they carry certain documentation, as detailed in the Directive.

[Carlito]

7 hours ago, Athy said:

Have you considered an ex-hire pénichette? The 930 and 935 models about 30 feet long by 10 feet wide, are well equipped and would be comfortable for one person. Solid GRP construction and quite manoeuvrable. One problem might be heating; they have blown-air heating, I'm not sure if this would be man enough to keep the interior cosy during a cold winter.

   Locaboat, who build and operate them, usually have a few for sale in France at about £30,000 - see their web site.

I haven't considered much as I was just looking at narrowboats firstly. Then my friend recommended Widebeams then I found out Dutch barges, lagoon catamarans etc exist. So your example is another boat I had no idea existed. 

 

I'm not really fussed what boat I get, as long as it can handle European waterways and is safe in them. 

 

I'll definitely look into them though!

[Carlito]

3 hours ago, Dav and Pen said:

Although the Tjalk and Aak type barges were  built of what is now considered “thin” steel most of them were  built of proper ship building steel not the modern mild steel that has lots of scrap in it. My Hagenaar barge was originally a sailing barge as were the Tjalk and when it was surveyed for me prior to completion of the purchase (at my expense) I was very surprised to see measurement of 4.5mm and 4mm which coming from Narrowboats I thought to thin. The surveyor said that as built 80 years ago it would have been 5.5mm and at 4mm was ok. Anything under could be doubled or if unconverted cut out and replaced .The ribs are much closer together around 400mm apart so the strength of the hull is there. These were mainly cargo carrying barges mine being built for a brick company and had load marks for 55 tones so clearly like narrow boats they were designed for the job.

when these barges were converted to pleasure boats and houseboats many had poured concrete as ballast which is now considered bad practice and some insurance companies do not like it. 
If you buy in Holland or Belgium through a broker a contract is drawn up between the buyer and seller agreeing the price subject to survey and a deposit is paid. If the survey turns up problems the buyer has the option of walking away or the seller has to put it right. It’s more legalistic than here and the brokers have to be licensed and registered.

Theres literally hundreds of small barges for sale but avoid anything over 20meters as another set of regulations apply and cheap barges are unlikely to have a certificate and if they have not got one by the end of this year then the rules change and they will be treated as new boats and need compliant engines.

Good luck and enjoy the hunt it’s well worthwhile 

 

Thanks for the info! 

 

20 metres, yea...that's huge.  I wouldn't even want something that big as the extra room would just go to waste.  Its only me and I have naff all possessions. My whole life fits easily into a motorhome ?

 

I'm not sure when I'll be buying.  It all depends what boat type and how much I can make in the next year or two (I can easily save 80% of my earnings). 

[Tam & Di]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Would someone taking over a 70 foot boat(from the UK) then require it to be modified and certified to the Dutch requirements ?

Would a 20m UK boat built "post RCD" still require certification or is the Dutch certification  equivalent to the RCD ?

Would a home-built (non RCD) UK boat over 5 years old require Dutch Certification, or would the RCD rules apply ?

The regulations are not Dutch, but most of the surveyors work for Dutch companies. The RCD has no relevance in this. I can’t remember the precise reason that UK inland waterways were able remain outside of the Technical Requirements for Inland Waterway Vessels (TRIWV - now ES-TRIN) - I believe it was basically as they do not form part of the interlinked waterways of Continental Europe. They are also outside of requirements for steerers to hold a certificate of competence such as the ICC; nor are the CEVNI rules applicable or use of standard CEVNI signage.

As Dave has said ES-TRIN is applicable to all vessels 20m or more (or >100m3 volume) on continental inland waterways, no matter their country of build or of registry. There has been a long run-in period for owners to gain certification during which time vessels were given ‘grandfather rights’ over important elements, particularly existing engines which might not comply with modern noise and emissions standards.. That period has now finished, and all craft applying for their first certificate must now comply fully in all respects.

Most modern pseudo “Dutch” leisure barges built in the UK have been under 20m, so would not come within ES-TRIN, but there is currently a case being argued between owner and builder where a guy bought a 70’ one advertised as suitable for Europe, only to find that it did not have the appropriate certification. The rules apply equally to a home-built craft - simple things like the necessity to have totally separate tanks for red diesel for heating and white diesel for propulsion.

>20m vessels do also now have to have AIS, even leisure craft. They’ve had to have two VHF sets for many years, and these must be ATIS-enabled. Small craft (i.e. under 20m) must also have ATIS-enabled VHF in e.g. Belgium and if they are on the Seine in France.

Even the threat of Brexit is causing some additional problems if you have a craft registered outside of an EU country (sorry Alan ? ), and owners who have used Dutch insurers for many years have now found they are unable to renew their cover.

Carlito will need to read up on the regulations if he is to follow his dream, and should best avoid anything over 20m no matter the asking price. Also he should really join the DBA (www.barges.org) where he could probably find the answers to any question he might think of (and many more he probably won’t - until too late).

 

Tam

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

Even the threat of Brexit is causing some additional problems if you have a craft registered outside of an EU country (sorry Alan ? ),

Many thanks for the explanation.

 

If you would be so kind - one last question.

Does this EU regulation apply to Ireland (Eire) or, as like the UK, they are not connected to the EU waterways so not applicable ?

 

I have no intention of keeping a boat on the continent, and, any boat I have will be well under 20 metres so I will not have any issues over this 'paperwork' requirement.

 

I am sure I will make the occasional foray into European waters but only as a visitor.