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Need Boat Moved from P&S Marine to Central London - sorry! (And another CC'd)


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After a false start or two I have a second boat! She is out being epoxy'd when we get a few dry days and then will be coming in to P&S Marine. From there I'm looking to bring her into my central London mooring and swap out my existing boat which will be going onto brokerage (I'll CC it until sold I think but may want a hand every so often). As new boat is a wee bit longer (70ft) and I'll be with only small-ish bits of the menagerie (if I can get time off work in this season at all) I thought to pay someone for a couple of days to bring her down.

 

Not set up for sleeping aboard yet (no mattress/even bed in one cabin) so would be looking for someone who could help me out on a 'day rate' type basis.

 

There isn't any particular kind of qualification/insurance/...? to look out for is there? I mentioned the idea to a friend and they were horrified I couldn't think what 'licence' I'd be checking bedsides the various recommendations on here.

 

Edited to add: both are trad narrowboats (although only the first one is a proper 'engine in the middle' tug style one)  - and you can just about see one of them in that Bloomberg/Guardian photo!

Edited by TheMenagerieAfloat
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Are you going to P&S by water or road transport?

IF you are going there by road I would change destination and get your boat craned in at Willowtree or somewhere closer to London as Denham Deep lock is still closed for the foreseable.

Of course it might reopen tomorrow..?

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Are you going from P&S marine by water? If so, I assume you'll be waiting until the Denham Deep stoppage is over, then I suggest you talk a friend or relative (ideally someone with some boating experience) into being your crew, then allow two days; one to get down about 11 locks and some way into the Paddington Arm, and the second day to do the remainder of that plus whatever locks you need to reach your destination; only 4 locks to reach Battlebridge Basin, but including one of the pair at Hampstead Road (aka Camden Lock). Expect a crowd of gongoozlers there!

You may also need to find someone with relevant knowledge to look after your animals en voyage. Try asking these two?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_Shop_Boys

Depending on when you go, if you need boating crew for an odd day (one of the two I mentioned) I might volunteer, just or the fun of it; I have some local knowledge of that route. Whoever is going to steer a 70' boat round the corner at Bull's Bridge needs to do it carefully of course.

 

Also, where will your old boat need to go to, and when? By water? Do you intend to transfer your stuff (including animals) from the old to the new boat, and if so how and where? In Battlebridge Basin, or should the boats meet somewhere more suitable?

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Ah, bother. Yes, by road. Had not looked at stoppages since original route plan. P&S Marine came up as the nearest place to get a 70' boat off truck and into water but looks like I'll be calling Willow Tree and Iver tomorrow to see what they can do...

I may need https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Poppins_(film) as well as the PSB - now there is a combination I never want to see!

 

Very limited transfer at Battlebridge required (few boaty bits and bobs only really as not sure I have sufficient cruising equipment for two boats yet - but I do have a storage unit) and no particular requirements (besides 20 miles, over 10months, etc and so forth) for the old one. Presumably a good idea to have some form of plan (direction anyway) sorted but was imagining finding first available mooring would be enough - not likely to be many free in the vicinity... but handy for when I realise I've forgotten something on the other craft.

 

If I get a better plan sorted @Peter X I may take you up on that (thank you!). I've lived my whole life in the area so am used to all new activities having a substantial audience - and latterly a YouTube presence!

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You are getting it epoxied when you get a few dry days! I wouldn't.

This time of year is not a good time to do that. Surface moisture as temps are too near the dew point.....even if you think it is dry ........ and how the heck will the solvent evaporate. 

Its going to be dry for a few days but DO NOT epoxy this weekend.

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21 minutes ago, Athy said:

Hence the Northern expression, "Ee, poxy weather".

 

And while we're on the subject, I hear Yorkshire teenagers are now taking Ecstacy a new way, by injecting it into their mouths.

 

They are call it "E by gum".

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And while we're on the subject, I hear Yorkshire teenagers are now taking Ecstacy a new way, by injecting it into their mouths.

 

They are call it "E by gum".

 

 

Known in Lancs. as the Orrell method..

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46 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And while we're on the subject, I hear Yorkshire teenagers are now taking Ecstacy a new way, by injecting it into their mouths.

 

They are call it "E by gum".

 

 

I'd have given Athy a greenie as well!

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The stuff (interzone 9 something something) is designed for popping onto the feet of oil rigs between tides so, whilst I understand it will take a bit longer/be less ideal than in summer it should still work? Several fluffies are going to live on this thing and putting them all up in a hotel for a week in summer (once other accommodation is gone) could be very tricky... But ordinary blacking when I (boat) has access to facilities to go back to bare seems like a waste?

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30 minutes ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

The stuff (interzone 9 something something) is designed for popping onto the feet of oil rigs between tides so, whilst I understand it will take a bit longer/be less ideal than in summer it should still work? Several fluffies are going to live on this thing and putting them all up in a hotel for a week in summer (once other accommodation is gone) could be very tricky... But ordinary blacking when I (boat) has access to facilities to go back to bare seems like a waste?

I spent many years managing a team developing epoxies for splash zone coatings. They are only done between May and early september when temperatures are significantly higher. Epoxies can be cured below 10°C and even below 0°C but its not all about the curing. Firstly, you cannot apply unless the steel temp is 3°C above the dew point. This is almost impossible in Dec/Jan. Daylight hours are much less than in the summer and it is often around zero between 6pm and 9am when it is dry and frosty. At temps near the dew point, you will get condensation on the surface WHICH YOU CANT SEE which will wreck the adhesion of the coating and hence it will not last 10 years and a waste of your investment. On offshore rigs, there will be people continually checking the temperatures (wet and dry thermometers) and controlling the workforce. This 'aint going to happen in a boatyard. Typically for offshore the steel temp will be at least 10 °C.

The second issue is solvent evaporation. These coatings contain around 20-30% solvent. Solvents are typically xylene, ethyle benzene etc. These do not evaporate well at 5°C. I would not paint at less than 10°C with solvent like this. If it doesnt come out, when you put the 2nd coat on, the solvent in the first coat will get trapped and soften the coating. The coating will still cross link and develop strength but it will be more porous than a well cured and solvent free coating. Additionally when it is that cold, you will need to add thinner (maybe another 10%) so that is even more solvent to evaporate.

If I was spending £5K on epoxying the bottom of my boat, the last thing I would do is get it done in Dec/Jan unless it was in a heated paint shed and the painters were taking time to measure steel temp and dew point.

As an example, today 1.30pm (hottest part of the day), beautiful sunshine in Warwickshire. Temp 5°C, dew point 2°C - doubt if the boat temp is up to 5°C so very very marginal if I could paint today.

 

Edited by Dr Bob
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So... You would leave boat as is or put bitumen now? And then take out again in a summer? 

 

If it was just for anodes I cd leave family aboard (dry dock near us)... To be out for any kind d of blacking will mean specialist boarding, kennels and hotel. Probably less than 5k. But definitely over 1k by itself without the extra for craning so not insignificant... 

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54 minutes ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

So... You would leave boat as is or put bitumen now? And then take out again in a summer? 

 

If it was just for anodes I cd leave family aboard (dry dock near us)... To be out for any kind d of blacking will mean specialist boarding, kennels and hotel. Probably less than 5k. But definitely over 1k by itself without the extra for craning so not insignificant... 

It's not easy to answer as I dont know the state of the existing coating. One option is to black it now to save taking it out the water again for a couple of years but if it is epoxied now then dont put blacking on if you are going to blast it off in the future - too much work.

You may try and black with a 'tolerant' blacking. I see good things about 'Keelblack' but never tried it. If it is cheap enough then maybe worth a try now - if it fails then you are not loosing too much.

Best to paint in the late spring/summer. Where we did ours this year you can stay on board and no problem with animals. Find the right boatyard.

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Ah-ha... The existing blacking (bitumen, not epoxy) was a bit of a state to be honest - I've seen much better 2 yr old blacking and I've not looked at that many hulls - and there were some patches of microbial rust I'd quite like off. The yard where she is out has a super-duper ultra high pressure washer rather than a normal one so is OK to take it back to bare metal (or, if just for bitumen, bare/sound coating), which feels like a bonus compared to a 'normal' pressure wash + bitumen option. Plus, as will be on shore power, would like a bunch more anodes done now.
 

 

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I mean, I think _any_ option (do nothing/bitumen/epoxy) is a bit flawed - but do appreciate thoughts on which is _least_ bad.

 

Edited to add - For various reasons I do not have the option to change the time of year of purchase.

Edited by TheMenagerieAfloat
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5 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

I spent many years managing a team developing epoxies for splash zone coatings. They are only done between May and early september when temperatures are significantly higher. Epoxies can be cured below 10°C and even below 0°C but its not all about the curing. Firstly, you cannot apply unless the steel temp is 3°C above the dew point. This is almost impossible in Dec/Jan. Daylight hours are much less than in the summer and it is often around zero between 6pm and 9am when it is dry and frosty. At temps near the dew point, you will get condensation on the surface WHICH YOU CANT SEE which will wreck the adhesion of the coating and hence it will not last 10 years and a waste of your investment. On offshore rigs, there will be people continually checking the temperatures (wet and dry thermometers) and controlling the workforce. This 'aint going to happen in a boatyard. Typically for offshore the steel temp will be at least 10 °C.

The second issue is solvent evaporation. These coatings contain around 20-30% solvent. Solvents are typically xylene, ethyle benzene etc. These do not evaporate well at 5°C. I would not paint at less than 10°C with solvent like this. If it doesnt come out, when you put the 2nd coat on, the solvent in the first coat will get trapped and soften the coating. The coating will still cross link and develop strength but it will be more porous than a well cured and solvent free coating. Additionally when it is that cold, you will need to add thinner (maybe another 10%) so that is even more solvent to evaporate.

If I was spending £5K on epoxying the bottom of my boat, the last thing I would do is get it done in Dec/Jan unless it was in a heated paint shed and the painters were taking time to measure steel temp and dew point.

As an example, today 1.30pm (hottest part of the day), beautiful sunshine in Warwickshire. Temp 5°C, dew point 2°C - doubt if the boat temp is up to 5°C so very very marginal if I could paint today.

 

on the same point, I spent a career installing major cross-country pipelines all over the world.  In more recent times the coal-tar method of field coating the joints after welding was superseded by epoxy coatings.  Even in summer months in the UK the coating crew spent many a day whistling at the weather, unable to work until the dew point readings were acceptable to the coating inspectors.  In practice, no coatings could be made between October and April unless special enclosures were rigged, and adequate moisture free heating provided.  Please don't do it unless you have a specialist inspector overseeing the work in an approved environment.

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What, if any, concerns are there with bitumen in this weather? - (I love how engineering geeky this forum is - my life is very theoretical and I appreciate those who can probably do their own shoe laces and everything...)

 

Also... are we really concluding that no boat yard should ever do epoxy becasue they won't be specialist enough? The yard the boat is out at have been doing it for 20 yrs and do their own working boats in it but I'm not sure what a 'specialist inspector' would really be in a residential/leisure boating context?

Edited by TheMenagerieAfloat
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Bitumen isnt much different, most of the major narrowboat coatings shouldn't be applied below 10deg C for best results....or state much longer drying times.

Bitumen will "bloom" or turn brown if the dew starts to form before it has sufficiently skinned, outside blacking is almost impossible at this time of year, or takes weeks rather than a week. 

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Fabulous. So, not just 'takes longer' but also 'doesn't work'... I'm not going to ask about introducing a boat with microbial rust to a tightly packed mooring where current boat has none...

 

Confirms my general life view that leaving Zone 1 is generally a mistake (centrally heated dry dock under cover only here - hence, in only small part, my naivety).

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On the plus side it turns out there is (on Mondays iirc) a crane at Willowtree in Yeading (West London Canal Services) so at least once I make up mind which of the unappealing hull maintenance options is least bad I have a decent hop eof getting boat 'home' in a day ? 

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13 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And while we're on the subject, I hear Yorkshire teenagers are now taking Ecstacy a new way, by injecting it into their mouths.

 

They are call it "E by gum".

 

 

Which is also the name of the Grand Master of the "ancient Lancastrian art" of "Ecky-Thump"

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22 hours ago, TheMenagerieAfloat said:

On the plus side it turns out there is (on Mondays iirc) a crane at Willowtree in Yeading (West London Canal Services) so at least once I make up mind which of the unappealing hull maintenance options is least bad I have a decent hop eof getting boat 'home' in a day ? 

Not been up and running for long-think its going to be very popular as its in a very useful location!

If you are stuck for getting your boat shifted have a word with Adam there.

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Yes - much easier route for me from there so may be doable without professional help. Will have a chat with him if I get cold feet though ? Thanks!

I'm thinking to go with ordinary blacking now and just not expect it to last too well. Then can make a decision about epoxy in better weather. Have arranged to have a chat with the boat yard who seem to be pretty knowledgeable.

Edited by TheMenagerieAfloat
wobbly spelling
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All is well in my little boating world :-)

 

Normal blacking for now (apparently an additional benefit of going down this route is avoiding the slow delivery times on what was apparently going to have to be special low temperature-friendly  epoxy) and transport to 'actually I would start from there' marina arranged.

 

Thank you all!

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