Dutch Barge Insurance

[curlass24]

Hello,

 

A family member has recently purchased a dutch barge and looking to get it insured. They're struggling as  have only had an "in-water" survey done and compnaies are sayign they need a recent  out of water survey. The boat is 1926.

 

Is this normal? Anyone know of any companies that don't require this?

 

I know they should have got an out of water survey done but they couldn't afford it.

 

Cheers,

 

Malcolm

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, curlass24 said:

Hello,

 

A family member has recently purchased a dutch barge and looking to get it insured. They're struggling as  have only had an "in-water" survey done and compnaies are sayign they need a recent  out of water survey. The boat is 1926.

 

Is this normal? Anyone know of any companies that don't require this?

 

I know they should have got an out of water survey done but they couldn't afford it.

 

Cheers,

 

Malcolm

If looking for 'fully comprehensive' insurance all companies will require a survey at that age (most companies demand one at 25-30 years old)

 

The only way to avoid having a survey is to insure 3rd party only (ie the boat is not insured, but anyone you 'hit' will be covered).

 

There are several companies that specialise in 3rd party, ie

 

https://www.insure4boats.co.uk/?ref=PPCGI4B38&gclid=Cj0KCQjwx43ZBRCeARIsANzpzb8QHqlubpiIfM1gy1wI7581RrkBc2VarnuIjhW7Ef2-ilPwsGeguwUaAsYTEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

But, if you want the boat insured you will have to have a lift out and a full survey conducted.

 

You can understand the insurers view - you could be trying to pull a scam, buy and old sinking wreck, insure it and then turn off the pumps and make a claim.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

Or Basic Boat Liability Insurance.

[Dav and Pen]

Rather foolish to buy an old barge without an out of water survey. Any insurance company will want one every 7 years at least once they have approved the initial survey. If it’s in the U.K. most of the usual boat insurers will quote but if it’s on the continent it is now proving more difficult to get British owned and registered boats covered.

[Mike Adams]

If they can find out the previous insurers of the boat sometimes they will take it on provided the last survey was not too long ago. Get at least 3rd party for the time being. It seems that most insurance companies are reluctant to take on old boats now. I know mine will not take on new clients but are happy to continue to insure me for the moment. It is becoming a big problem for some historic boat owners and many surveyors won't touch them. The costs of slipping a barge and a survey in the UK every few years probably doubles the cost of the insurance.

[mrsmelly]

My mate managed to get insurance on the understanding it was to be surveyed within I think 3 months. He then had a survey and he was covered fully on the proviso all work was done within 3 months. He has to have a full out of water survey every 7 years, hes had it done again this year and is still fully comp insured, its fairly old but not ancient from the 50s iirc.

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, Dav and Pen said:

Rather foolish to buy an old barge without an out of water survey. 

 

I agree. If they couldn't afford an out of the water survey how are they going to afford the hull repairs?

 

I looked at lots of old barges before compromising and getting a widebeam built. It's quite difficult to find an old well-maintained barge without spending a fortune. Most boats I looked at were getting a bit thin in places and the quality of replating or overplating that's already been done on them varies. I looked at some boats in France but a surveyor there thinks a hull is fine even if it's down to 3mm. Of course it'll be fine for a while but in the UK I'm not sure if it would even be insurable and I wasn't looking for a boat I'd need to do hull repairs on imminently.

 

If the OP's relative's boat doesn't need hull repairs they'll have been extremely fortunate. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by blackrose

[Dav and Pen]

My old barge was over 100 years old. Every 7 years we had an out of water survey and usually the surveyor managed to find something that needed doing, most of us thought they worked a little bit in hand with the shipyard but once they had written that you needed a new stern tube bearing or some doubling there wasn’t a lot you could do but have the work done.

[Alan de Enfield]

I'm guessing that if there were insufficient finds in the budget to pay for a survey, that the boat itself was at the 'lower end' of the price spectrum and is therefore likely to be a greater insurance risk.

 

A 90+ year old boat is a liability for those experienced with 'old' boats, for those who have just decided 'to buy a boat' it could be a financial disaster.

 

The OP's 'family member' would be well advised to have a survey as soon as possible, if it was bought at a 'budget price' then they could be sitting on 0.01mm steel plate and nobody will know until it gets a 'knock' and starts taking on water, or,

It could have been recently overplated and everything is 'sound', but I'm sure, if it were me, I'd rather know which it was.

[blackrose]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The OP's 'family member' would be well advised to have a survey as soon as possible, if it was bought at a 'budget price' then they could be sitting on 0.01mm steel plate and nobody will know until it gets a 'knock' and starts taking on water, or,

It could have been recently overplated and everything is 'sound', but I'm sure, if it were me, I'd rather know which it was.

 

It's likely to be somewhere between those two extremes - i.e. it will be too thin in places but probably not down to a tenth of a mm. But Alan is right - it needs a survey so that the owner knows.

[roland elsdon]

Insurance companies wont insure you against sinking coz your boat is thin anyway. If it does sink through  hull neglect they still wont pay out. They cover    specific events and sinking through failure to maintain isnt one.

bit like your car failing mot and then being ‘stolen’

[jenevers]

Does 3rd party cover 

9 hours ago, David Mack said:

Or Basic Boat Liability Insurance.

That policy seems to cover wreck removal up to£50,000. So although your boat isn’t insured, it seems to imply that if it sank the policy would cover its removal. Am I reading that correctly?

[roland elsdon]

The key word is liability. They will pay that but not for the boat. Wreck removal could encompass cutting it up.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, jenevers said:

Does 3rd party cover 

That policy seems to cover wreck removal up to£50,000. So although your boat isn’t insured, it seems to imply that if it sank the policy would cover its removal. Am I reading that correctly?

There is always the get-out clause that the boat must be in 'sound condition'

A boat with a thin hull that develops a 'hole' is not maintained in a 'sound condition'.

Wreck removal will NOT be carefully lifting it out and taking it to a place of your choice for repair - it could well be just dragging it out of the way, or cutting it up in situ.

 

 

 

 

Main Features & Benefits

- A highly competitive annual insurance premium for your boat
- Limit of Indemnity £ 5,000,000
- Wreck Removal costs up to £ 50,000 (if you are legally liable for these costs)
- Excess NIL, that’s right no deductions in the event of a claim
- No limit on the age of the boat provided it is in a sound condition and maintained as such
- Optional racing cover (for certain events – under sail only – check with us)
- Cover whilst afloat and while stored ashore

 

 

Exclusions : The Company shall not provide indemnity against liability where the Insured Craft is not in sound condition and the claim directly relates to the condition of the Insured Craft.  

Edited November 22, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[jenevers]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There is always the get-out clause that the boat must be in 'sound condition'

A boat with a thin hull that develops a 'hole' is not maintained in a 'sound condition'.

Wreck removal will NOT be carefully lifting it out and taking it to a place of your choice for repair - it could well be just dragging it out of the way, or cutting it up in situ.

 

 

 

 

Main Features & Benefits

- A highly competitive annual insurance premium for your boat
- Limit of Indemnity £ 5,000,000
- Wreck Removal costs up to £ 50,000 (if you are legally liable for these costs)
- Excess NIL, that’s right no deductions in the event of a claim
- No limit on the age of the boat provided it is in a sound condition and maintained as such
- Optional racing cover (for certain events – under sail only – check with us)
- Cover whilst afloat and while stored ashore

Hmm. So does that mean they want a survey.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, jenevers said:

Hmm. So does that mean they want a survey.

No, but when they investigate the cause of the claim, if the boat is (for example) holed due to lack of maintenance then they will not pay out.

 

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Exclusions : The Company shall not provide indemnity against liability where the Insured Craft is not in sound condition and the claim directly relates to the condition of the Insured Craft

In that example you would be paying the £10's of thousands in recovery / removal costs from your own pocket.

 

Edit to add :

 Some may argue that if the boat has a BSSC then it is 'maintained', but we all know that the BSSC is no guide to the structural  integrity of the boat, simply that the gas or electric systems will not cause a fire, and that the pump-out tank has the correct identification label.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[roland elsdon]

I suspect also on removal the wreck becomes theirs...

[wiltshirewonderer]

Point your friends in the direction of http://barges.org/. Dutch barges are a different kettle of fish to narrowboats and specialised insurers recognise that. 

[David Mack]

I think it is a requirement of CRT licencing that your insurance must cover wreck removal, so they do not incur the cost themselves.  Other navigation authorities may vary.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 hours ago, David Mack said:

I think it is a requirement of CRT licencing that your insurance must cover wreck removal, so they do not incur the cost themselves.  Other navigation authorities may vary.

It is. (Mooring / CC, Insurance & BSSC)

 

However it is a similar requirement (to be insured, not 'wreck recovery) to obtain a car 'tax disc' but every year many seem to be able to use their cars without it, and many more do something to invalidate the insurance.

 

A few years ago my wife was in a car accident where she was T-Boned by a car coming out of a side road. We had a big battle with the 3rd Party insurers (the Co-Op) as they claimed the 3rd party had invalidated his insurance by not notifying them that he had been awarded 'speeding points' and thus he had no insurance.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Alan de Enfield