Wellbeing in Worksop....CRT in trouble

[Jim Riley]

6 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

They have sold most of the council owned houses, if we borrow to fund them, the money borrowed plus interest has to be paid back, I don’t see how councils can build significantly cheaper than builders, so the rents would not be affordable by most that need housing, so they would have to be subsidised by the tax payer, which I accept, however, how much more tax would you be willing to pay??

"most"? Nah! More than 70% of the houses round me haven't been sold off. Remind me how much profit persimmon, barret and their ilk made from building houses? That would build a few more. Have you seen what tiny shoe boxes they are too, tiny gardens around them. Give me a roomy council house and garden any day. I'm happy to pay whatever tax I'm eligible to pay, when I first started work it was 35%. 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Why are C&RT being blamed for flooding in Worsop ? 

They aren't.

 

they are being blamed for the flooding in Worksop (15 km North of Worsop)

[magpie patrick]

40 minutes ago, Athy said:

...in that poem about the useless goalkeeper (he stoppeth one in three, if I remember aright).

Yes, he's playing for Chesterfield these days, judging by their position in the National League...

[Athy]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I know what I said (was just waiting for the 1st bite)

 

That was plane to see, yes.

[Momac]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

They aren't.

 

they are being blamed for the flooding in Worksop (15 km North of Worsop)

Typo 

Delete Worsop 

Insert Worksop and repeat question.

[Athy]

22 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Yes, he's playing for Chesterfield these days, judging by their position in the National League...

It would never have happened when Alan Humphreys was in goal!

Your comment made me seek news of the club on the internet. I was shocked and saddened to see that not only had they been relegated from the League, but that they had left Saltergate - a ground where I stood on the terraces with my Dad numerous times.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Typo 

Delete Worsop 

Insert Worksop and repeat question.

C&RT Informational Document :

 

 

FLOOD & WATER MANAGEMENT ACT 2010  
The Flood & Water Management Act 2010 places new responsibilities on a number of organisations. 
 
By way of background to our roles and responsibilities in relation to flood risk management: 
 
1.         The Trust is a navigation authority. It inspects, maintains and operates the water control structures within its ownership primarily to meet its statutory obligation to maintain navigation. 
 
2.         The Trust is not a Risk Management Authority (RMA) as defined by Section 6 (13) of the Flood & Water Management Act 2010. 
 
3.         The Trust is not a Category 1 or 2 responder as defined by the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, and is not therefore required to undertake any specific civil protection duties under the Act. By local agreement, the Trust may provide specific assistance in the event of a flood incident. Typically this would be in consultation with Silver Command and/or the Environment Agency. 
 
4.         In terms of managing flood risk, the primary responsibility for land drainage and flood prevention rests with private parties. The Trust does not have any specific statutory responsibilities in relation to flooding and, therefore, its responsibilities are those of an owner and operator of its canals and other waterways. 
 

 

Section 21 – Duty to maintain a register (and record) 
 
This section requires LLFAs to establish and maintain a register of structures or features which may significantly affect a flood risk in their area, as well a record of information including ownership and state of repair.  To assist LLFAs to undertake this requirement, the Canal & River Trust have prepared a set of data files, comprising GIS layers (shape files and personal geodatabases) along with a spreadsheet record, of all our canals, locks, canal weirs, river weirs, sluices, culverts, aqueducts, embankments, reservoirs, stop/safety/flood gates and channel retaining walls in England and Wales.  The information pack includes details of ownership (where known, if not Canal & River Trust) and state of repair (in the form of an asset Condition Grade, assigned using our internal Asset Inspection Procedures).  The Trust will endeavour to update this information on an annual basis (each January), to account for any changes to structures (e.g. repair works may lead to an improvement in the Condition Grade), but the LLFA will need to contact the Trust to obtain these updates. To request the information pack, please send an email specifying your name, organisation and a statement that your organisation is a member of the Public Sector Mapping Agreement (PSMA) to water.information@canalrivertrust.org.uk with the title “F&WM Act - Duty to maintain a register & record”. We are unable to provide the full information pack to any organisation that is not part of the PSMA (due to licensing issues) and nor are we able to provide bespoke requests in a different format. 
 

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Murflynn]

1 hour ago, Laurie.Booth said:

House them.

is it the responsibility of the council to go around each evening, look for 'homeless' folk sleeping in wheelie bins (who may have been at the boozer and missed the last bus home) and forcibly march them to a convenient 'home' ?     just askin' ......................  

[Murflynn]

47 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I'm sorry I haven't read every post.

Why are C&RT being blamed for flooding in Worsop ? 

Is it not  the Environment Agency who are in charge of flood defence with support from the Lead  Local Flood authority (usually the district or borough council)   and therefore in charge of flood gates ?

I posted this on the dark side a few hours ago: 

 

this makes interesting, if confusing, reading:         canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/original/22703-canal-and-river-trust-f-and-wma-2010.pdf       
... as does this:               https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment_Agency

I love the last sentence:  Sir Philip Dilley resigned as chairman of the Environment Agency on 11 January 2016. Dilley stated he was stepping down because "expectations" of his role have changed to mean he has to be "available at short notice throughout the year".   

Clearly his chairmanship of a quango disrupted his holiday plans and his golf schedule.   "What?  You mean I have to get involved as well as attending corporate dinners and conferences?   Not bloody likely."

Wiki also notes:

Dilley was appointed as the Environment Agency's chairman in September 2014, succeeding Chris Smith in the post.
  In December 2015, during the unprecedented flooding of northern England, he was criticised for failing to cut short a holiday to Barbados to lead the flood response.  Although only required to work a three-day week for his £100k-a-year job, according to The Independent he had promised on appointment that he would work six or seven days a week and turn up in his wellington boots if there was a crisis. His staff admitted he had been trying to avoid media scrutiny.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Murflynn
correction

[Sea Dog]

38 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

Have you seen what tiny shoe boxes they are too, tiny gardens around them. Give me a roomy council house and garden any day.

Interestingly, the minimum room sizes for homes built for social housing are larger than those the same housebuilders can build for private sales on the same site.

[Alan de Enfield]

EA Responsibilities :

 

The organisation of surface water management and its relationship to flood risk and spatial planning.   A broad review of France, Germany, Scotland and England. 

Dr Juliet H Richards  School of Environment and Development, University of Manchester, Oxford Road, Manchester, M13 9PL, England. 

 

 

In both England and Scotland, flood risk management is a sector that has been given more and more consideration over the last decade, particularly in respect of the linkages between flood risk and wider water resource concerns. This has been to the extent that the ‘flooding agenda’ has moved away from the traditional approach of flood protection to a more sustainable approach of flood prevention or management (Richards, 2005). In both countries, the only legal responsibility for protecting against flooding lies with the individual land or property owner (DTLR, 2001; Scottish Executive, 2004). In other words, there is no public authority with a statutory duty to defend land or property against flooding. That is not to say, however, that no public authority is involved in dealing with flood risk. Indeed, both the EA and SEPA have significant roles to play in terms of flood risk management and both England and Scotland demonstrate a number of similarities in their approach to flood risk management. However, there are also a number of differences in terms of the functions of different agencies or authorities.  
 
For example, in England, there are four ‘operating authorities’ – statutory agencies with differing permissive (emphasis added) powers and duties relating to flood defence, conferred upon them by the LDA 1991 (as amended) and the Water Resources Act 1991. These agencies are the EA, Local Authorities, Internal Drainage Boards and Maritime Local Authorities, although it is the EA that has the lead role for flood risk management with responsibilities for the provision and maintenance of flood defences, implementation of flood warning systems, provision of planning advice, flood risk assessment and mapping and provision of general advice to the public. However, the flood defence powers of the EA are permissive only. In other words, the EA has the power, but not a duty, to provide and maintain land drainage and flood defences (Wynn, 2005). It should be noted that the EA’s responsibilities and activities in flood risk management and flood defence provision apply only to ‘main rivers’ and ‘critical ordinary watercourses’ and not ‘ordinary watercourses’, which are the responsibility of local authorities.

 

 

[dmr]

2 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

Some well intentioned soul did this on the Chesterfield last week, on the isolated length near Chesterfield - but the top gate was open. Come the morning the canal above the lock was the driest land for miles around... 

 

On the Rochdale the locks weir through the chamber, so making sure they're empty and water can get away is a sensible precaution, the main thing this  prevents (on a canal at least) is flooding local to the lock

The Rochdale 9 does not have bywash channels, the water just overtops the gates, but almost all of the remaining locks do have a bywash though one or two are on the towpath side so might have been a more recent addition. Flooding is a big problem on the Yorkshire side of the summit, there was a near miss just last week. It occurs to me that opening both top and bottom paddles could help prevent localised flooding and generally shift more water down the canal but this would have to be really well co-ordinated with a flood warden at most locks receiving and supplying information over the phone. I suspect the really difficult bit would be the ability to create some flooding at one location to prevent or reduce more serious or expensive flooding elsewhere, "lets flood the council estate to save the local businesses" sort of thing.

 

................Dave

Edited November 15, 2019 by dmr
typo

[Ian Mac]

It is my understanding the after the previous floods up north, that the EA are responsible for the management of flood water, they can request C&RT to take and manage water, but it is C&RT's choice.
The EA current thinking is "Slow The Flow"
The sluice in question is within a council owned building, I eblieve, the council have admitted it is dangerous, and C&RT have been requesting that the council (not sure which) make access to their sluice available. Flood or no flood does not make the building safe! Firemen doing the job was probably a good solution as they could have access to equipment to keep them safe.
However it is not C&RT's job to manage flood water just there own water.
Not sure who will shut the sluice, and whether it would have made any difference, I would be amazed if it would have. People in this sort of situation are very quick to blame someone else, for that fact that they live on a flood plain.

Fishlake has always flooded. There are blow points in the River Don walls to breach it onto the Fishlake meadows in times of great stress, to save Thorne and Thorne Marsh from getting flooded. I believe it is spectacular when they blow the breaches. It has also to be remembered that the Don is Tidal at this point and is up as far as Long Sandal I think.
Fishlake meadows flood anyway, however the village is on a knoll, so is usually safe.

[Sea Dog]

12 minutes ago, Ian Mac said:

Fishlake has always flooded.

Without wishing to be unsympathetic to the plight of folk caught up in this very difficult situation, I'd like to think I'd be extra diligent if tempted to look at a property in any place with a name ending in Lake, Ford, Bottom, etc.

[Cheese]

31 minutes ago, Ian Mac said:

...  People in this sort of situation are very quick to blame someone else, for that fact that they live on a flood plain.

...Fishlake meadows flood anyway, however the village is on a knoll, so is usually safe.

+1.

The old part of Fishlake is on a knoll, so low flood risk,  but like in many other places there has been some new build on the flatter areas to the north and east that are a Medium risk.  It will be mainly these properties that are now flooded.  Any built since 2009 probably can't get insurance against flooding.   The house prices probably reflect the increased risk - but many people choose to see only the lower price and ignore the risk!

 

The flooded caravan site in Worksop is High risk, so they really shouldn't be surprised.

[rustynewbery]

Over in Venice, they too have disastrous flooding issues and have been waiting years to implement a barrier system to prevent high tides swamping the place. BUT - it seems corruption and spiralling costs have delayed the project...….sounds really familiar doesn't it?  Add to it that Fishlake was once a bog in the 1700's and was drained??????

 

I've had experience of calling CRT to report emergencies and found extreme difficulty getting call handlers to direct me to the right area supervisor; unless you happen to have the mobile number of the right person, you don't stand a chance because they invariably don't even call back.

 

You can have all the experience in retail, finance etc and a bunch of MBA's but they don't replace common sense and LOCAL knowledge.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

Without wishing to be unsympathetic to the plight of folk caught up in this very difficult situation, I'd like to think I'd be extra diligent if tempted to look at a property in any place with a name ending in Lake, Ford, Bottom, etc.

...Hurricane Way (Slough, as if that isn't a deterrence in itself), Volcano Island (Phillipines), Earthquake Point (Washington state, USA), Lightning Grove (Nottingham) etc.

 

Surely these places are named for good reason.

[Pluto]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

The Rochdale 9 does not have bywash channels, the water just overtops the gates, but almost all of the remaining locks do have a bywash though one or two are on the towpath side so might have been a more recent addition. Flooding is a big problem on the Yorkshire side of the summit, there was a near miss just last week. It occurs to me that opening both top and bottom paddles could help prevent localised flooding and generally shift more water down the canal but this would have to be really well co-ordinated with a flood warden at most locks receiving and supplying information over the phone. I suspect the really difficult bit would be the ability to create some flooding at one location to prevent or reduce more serious or expensive flooding elsewhere, "lets flood the council estate to save the local businesses" sort of thing.

 

................Dave

From my 2004 report on paddle gear on the Rochdale, below, weirs built into the lock walls seem to have been a Yorkshire feature. Bywashes were added when the local authorities were restoring the canal.

 

7.4 Airholes

 

One feature of the Rochdale Canal ground paddles was the use of airholes for water level control instead of byewashes. These are generally to be found on the Yorkshire side of the canal, and lock 39 may be the most westerly example. Excess water from the upper pool runs through the airhole and into the ground paddle sluice and then into the lock chamber. It should then run to waste through the bottom gate paddles. In the first Rochdale Canal Act a clause specifies that the bottom gate paddles should be left open after the lock has been used. Some people consider that this was related to the operation of airholes, but similar clauses appear in Acts for canals which did not have the airhole system, such as the Leeds 7 Liverpool Canal. More probably, it was included because lock walls were seen as a source of leakage as it was difficult to keep them watertight. This was certainly the case on the Rochdale where the puddle lining behind lock walls may only have been sufficient to preserve the water in the lower pool. Leakage from behind lock walls was a continual problem mentioned in the engineer's reports, and the effects are still apparent today. With the chamber empty, the smaller upper gates would be less likely to leak excessively then the larger lower gates with the chamber full.

 

The airhole system relies on the upper face of the bottom gate being used as the datum for the pool above the lock. This has been ignored in the reconstruction of some gates. Although byewashes are now installed, gate height is still an important factor in the efficient operation of locks when water is running to waste, and this is causing problems, particularly on the Manchester locks. There the top gates are higher than the bottom, making it impossible for water levels to become equal either side of the top gates when the upper pool is full.

 

For efficient operation, the upper gates should be slightly higher than the airhole or byewash level; the lower gates should then be a couple of inches higher than the upper gates; and the waste weir an inch or so higher than the lower gates. If the lock is left empty, excess water will normally pass through the airholes. If the lock is full, then excess water passes over the lower gates allowing the upper gates to be opened without difficulty. Water flowing over the gate is kept to a minimum by any large excess being diverted over the waste weir into nearby water courses.

 

Airholes seem to have been a feature of some canals built or influenced by Jessop. For example they were used on the Basingstoke, Cromford, Barnsley, Nottingham, Grand Junction and Grantham Canal for which he was engineer. Jessop also trained John Killaly in Ireland when he was working on the Grand Canal, and Killaly uses the system when he builds the Royal Canal extension. It was also used by Crosley Junior on the Lancaster Canal extension at Tewitfield, by Outram (associated with Jessop on the Cromford) on the Peak Forest, and by Rennie on the Kennet & Avon. There are detail variations between in the type of airholes used on individual canals. For instance, on the Peak Forest Canal there are airholes at both the upper and lower gates.

 

The system may have problems when large volumes of water are being supplied to lower sections of the canal or during heavy rainfall on sections not fitted with sufficient waste weirs. In these cases, flooding can result from blockage of the relatively small airholes. Water will cascade over the gates, but in excessive amounts it may damage the structure of the lock tail. Byewashes were built around locks 6 and 7 following flood damage to the canal caused by heavy rain. Byewashes were also built around the Tewitfield Locks on the Lancaster Canal when they were closed to ensure that there was no unnecessary interruption to the supply from Killington Reservoir. Judging from the stonework, they were also fitted to the Peak Forest Canal locks sometime after they were built, perhaps in the late nineteenth century.

[dmr]

Not sure about these "small" airholes? on the K&A they are huge slots just below the paddle gear, referred to as "letter boxes" by some of the locals, or am I missing something?. Most of the K&A locks have now got a proper bywash but a few, like the Crofton flight, still rely on water flowing through the lock.  Not sure about the Rochdale, we did Summit to Tod last Sunday and there was a lot of water coming down, overtopping the gates in many locks, but I saw little evidence of water coming into the locks through the "airholes"...I would expect to see turbulence in the water like when the paddle is up? We did see this but only on one side in one lock (just below Walsden?) so I put that down to a paddle not fully closing.   or are the top gates now much lower than they should be????

 

..................Dave

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

The Rochdale 9 does not have bywash channels, the water just overtops the gates, but almost all of the remaining locks do have a bywash though one or two are on the towpath side so might have been a more recent addition. Flooding is a big problem on the Yorkshire side of the summit, there was a near miss just last week. It occurs to me that opening both top and bottom paddles could help prevent localised flooding and generally shift more water down the canal but this would have to be really well co-ordinated with a flood warden at most locks receiving and supplying information over the phone. I suspect the really difficult bit would be the ability to create some flooding at one location to prevent or reduce more serious or expensive flooding elsewhere, "lets flood the council estate to save the local businesses" sort of thing.

 

................Dave

The positive outcome you anticipate is far from obvious, at least to me. Suppose that the excess water is entering the canal at regular intervals then the effect will be to create a progressively escalating flow of water down the canal, to the point at which it overwhelms the banks etc. In appropriate circumstances it may well be better to allow it to flow out to holding areas as it goes along so that none have a large amount to take on. Only someone with expert knowledge and access to real time modelling is likely to be in a position to make the judgement.

[dmr]

Just now, Mike Todd said:

The positive outcome you anticipate is far from obvious, at least to me. Suppose that the excess water is entering the canal at regular intervals then the effect will be to create a progressively escalating flow of water down the canal, to the point at which it overwhelms the banks etc. In appropriate circumstances it may well be better to allow it to flow out to holding areas as it goes along so that none have a large amount to take on. Only someone with expert knowledge and access to real time modelling is likely to be in a position to make the judgement.

Which is exactly why I said it would need to be really well co-ordinated. A new holding area (a big hole) was dug in Todmorden only last year. Slowing the flow to prevent sudden downpours from overwhelming the available channels is key but in a steep tight valley (or valleys) the options are a bit limited.

I believe that in the recent near miss it was the canal rather than the river that was causing localised trouble so shifting a bit more water along it might have helped. Every flood is different so I suspect getting good models would be difficult and a bit of seat of the pants stuff might be needed, but I would hate to be the one making the decisions. It was bad enough coming down the canal last week and wondering if our locking was going to create any issues further down, especially as we had to run some water off at a couple of locks. We did have a long lunch stop to let the flow settle down a bit.

 

...................Dave

[roland elsdon]

2 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Without wishing to be unsympathetic to the plight of folk caught up in this very difficult situation, I'd like to think I'd be extra diligent if tempted to look at a property in any place with a name ending in Lake, Ford, Bottom, etc.

It’s very local though. When we bought this place the flood maps showed a high flood bit 400 metres away, and yesterday proved them right. However it a 15% hill down into it, and we are 15 metres higher. Didn’t stop the insurance company penalising us.

having tried to cycle home this pm I confirm that what you are saying has a truth, but that norton near daventry should be renamed soggy bottom and that I had to clear duckweed from my wheels at weedon.

[Victor Vectis]

5 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

Out of interest, how much more tax would you be happy to pay to provide decent housing to the thousands if not millions of deserving cases?  

I might be guessing but I bet you have a nice warm bed to sleep in tonight.

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, roland elsdon said:

It’s very local though. When we bought this place the flood maps showed a high flood bit 400 metres away, and yesterday proved them right. However it a 15% hill down into it, and we are 15 metres higher. Didn’t stop the insurance company penalising us.

having tried to cycle home this pm I confirm that what you are saying has a truth, but that norton near daventry should be renamed soggy bottom and that I had to clear duckweed from my wheels at weedon.

Thus a bit wet round here isnt it, I had to turn round at Flore Mill yesterday, no chance of getting through.

Yelvertoft marina staff had a shock as well, the level rose 7" and they had to go round the pontoons loosening lines....I  believe Welford marina was even worse.

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Victor Vectis said:

I might be guessing but I bet you have a nice warm bed to sleep in tonight.

I would imagine that one of the big industrial wheelie bins would be ok on a cold night. The crucial bit isn't just the lid to keep the rain off, but the fact that you're off the ground, which is where the cold really comes from. It's fifty years since I was sleeping rough, but you don't forget, and you don't mock those that do.