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New build snagging issues


DTrip

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Apologies for the comment above, you will get serious replies from senior forum members.

There was recent thread which discussed some arguments, the problem, while not very relevant in this instance, helped develop the the way things might be approached.

I would think you may need an experienced surveyor.

 

Edited by LadyG
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You need to employ your own surveyor who’s used to dealing with such matters. If you are able to post what the issues are the forum may be able to advise...I don’t mean to be flippant but sometimes especially if you are new to boats things that you might consider serious are quite easy to sort either by yourself..the builder or a third party. 

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One tip is, you should have joined here long ago...

If your issues are quality or safety issues, you need a reputable surveyor and a lawyer.

If your issues are financial,(ie staged payment problems,  or non delivery of the spec ordered, ) then trading standards and a lawyer). 

 

Legal advice should only be given out by suitably qualified and time served persons who charge a lot.

Free advice from the Barrack Room School of Canalworld cannot be fully relied on to be completely accurate.....and you may not like some of the responses if they disagree with your view

Edited by matty40s
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My advice to you would be to contact citizens advice, they walked me through every stage of the process and I eventually got success.

a word of warning, your post on here will invariably get some replies that advise you to roll over, do it yourself or accept imperfection and second rate service, do not listen, you will find it tiring, daunting and depressing but you must persevere otherwise good people will continue to have their dreams ruined. you should expect to get what you paid for, nothing more, nothing less. good luck

 

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6 hours ago, DTrip said:

Hi, we have serious issues with our new narrowboat, legal advice may be required.

Any tips or suggestions please.

Is your boat brand new or is it just new to you ie second hand?

Have you discussed the problems with the vendor, if so what was the response?

What is the name of the vendor/manufacturer as members of this forum may be able to advise on any historic problems with them?

Manufacturers should be a member of a trade organisation that maintains standards so you will have recourse to them in a case of dispute. I suggest  you ask them for their contact details if it's not on your invoice or in the boat manual.

 

Edited by Flyboy
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If you paid any part with a credit card you may contact your credit card provider for advice.

They should  give you the relevant laws to quote in a letter.

 

However as indicated already . May we have an idea if the serious issues.

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4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would suggest you read this blog and maybe contact the author, it may not be as clear cut as you think and it will give you an idea what you are up against.

 https://noproblem.org.uk/blog/my-day-in-court-with-collingwood-boat-builders/ 

Link gives me "Internal Server Error"

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Interesting to see that the McNaughton family is still involved with the firm. Stan McNaughton (Anne's Dad?) was at the helm of Liverpool Boats for years.

Interesting, also, to see that the judge had no experience of boats. Perhaps, before the case, he should have taken steps to acquaint himself with their relevant aspects.

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5 hours ago, DTrip said:

Any tips or suggestions please.

 

 

Yes. Not that my tip will help you, but may help others.

 

Buy a second hand boat not a new build. That way you get to see it, survey it, make sure it in tip top condition before you stump up your cash.

 

This forum is littered with new build disaster stories. 

 

 

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15 hours ago, DTrip said:

Hi, we have serious issues with our new narrowboat, legal advice may be required.

Any tips or suggestions please.

 

I'm not sure how anyone is expected to respond with useful tips or suggestions based on virtually no information? Some people have kindly offered advice but it's mostly generic and based on guesswork. The issues encountered could be anything from delays to the build; the boat not meeting the agreed spec; the builder going out of business, or anything else within our outside of that spectrum. Without more information, nobody is going to be able to do anything other than guess and offer generic replies, so if that's all you want then fine, but if you want something more specific then I suggest you volunteer some more details.

Edited by blackrose
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14 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I'm not sure how anyone is expected to respond with useful tips or suggestions based on virtually no information? Some people have kindly offered advice but it's mostly generic and based on guesswork. The issues encountered could be anything from delays to the build; the boat not meeting the agreed spec; the builder going out of business, or anything else within our outside of that spectrum. Without more information, nobody is going to be able to do anything other than guess and offer generic replies, so if that's all you want then fine, but if you want something more specific than I suggest you volunteer some more details.

Folks are unable to sleep due to worry, in desperation, they grasp at straws.

You and me have experienced deflected ordure from the fan, but once upon-a-time we were all naive.

Edited by LadyG
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On 14/11/2019 at 10:12, ditchcrawler said:

I would suggest you read this blog and maybe contact the author, it may not be as clear cut as you think and it will give you an idea what you are up against.

 https://noproblem.org.uk/blog/my-day-in-court-with-collingwood-boat-builders/ 

It isn't clear cut at all although I had over 100 pages in my bundle.  The case kept getting set aside as Collingwood kept saying they hadn't received post.  In all it took almost a year to get to a final hearing from when I told them about the problem and tried to get them to fix it.  By this time too I had had a Marine Surveyor give a report which was sent to them.

 

On 14/11/2019 at 10:19, Athy said:

Interesting to see that the McNaughton family is still involved with the firm. Stan McNaughton (Anne's Dad?) was at the helm of Liverpool Boats for years.

Interesting, also, to see that the judge had no experience of boats. Perhaps, before the case, he should have taken steps to acquaint himself with their relevant aspects.

I have to guess that the judge had less than 10 minutes to look at the case before calling us in.  At a previous hearing a judge ordered that ALL emails were to be included in our bundles.. Well I did.. All 80 or so of them.. Collingwood had only 5 pages of anything in their bundle.

 

My biggest mistake was that I should have taken with me a coatings specialist who I should have got to inspect the boat.. A Marine Surveyor is not good enough.  I did ask Jotun if they would come and inspect the boat but they refused to do so saying that there was nothing wrong with their paint.  They supply all the paint to Collingwood.  I did say it wasn't their paint more like it was the way it was applied.  They refused to inspect.. 

 

So, if you have a problem with your boat that ends up in court you MUST employ a specialist in whatever field your problem is and get them to court with you.  If you win your case you get all his expenses paid.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Sue said:

So, if you have a problem with your boat that ends up in court you MUST employ a specialist in whatever field your problem is and get them to court with you.  If you win your case you get all his expenses paid.

The 'problem is' that when you lose (as many individuals do when up against 'big business'), is that you have spent / lost even more money.

 

In principle you are absolutely correct but its a difficult choice to make, accept it, or throw good money after bad.

 

I do have sympathies with you - I lost a fortune on a boat following a 'good survey' which turned out to have been written whilst he was sat in with the broker drinking coffee.

I needed to spend over £20,000 to actually get it 'sea-worthy' and safe to drive.

Tried to take the surveyor to court but my Solicitor said the Surveyors "small print" meant that he was not responsible for anything he wrote if it turned out to be incorrect.

My Solicitor suggested going to court would do nothing except to cost me several £1000's and it would be thrown out by the Judge - spend the 'court costs' on getting the boat fixed.

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Thanks all for your comments. We are hoping still to deal with this without resorting to legal action. We have had an independent inspection which condemned the gas fitting, now refitted and safe. Other issues, of which there  are many remain unresolved. I am certain we have enough evidence to close the company down, I'm not sure that would be a good thing to do but equally they are flouting the law and treating their customers with distain. 

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5 minutes ago, DTrip said:

Thanks all for your comments. We are hoping still to deal with this without resorting to legal action. We have had an independent inspection which condemned the gas fitting, now refitted and safe. Other issues, of which there  are many remain unresolved. I am certain we have enough evidence to close the company down, I'm not sure that would be a good thing to do but equally they are flouting the law and treating their customers with distain. 

Have you considered letting Trading Standards take the risk if the boat did comply with the RCD certification

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2 minutes ago, DTrip said:

Thanks all for your comments. We are hoping still to deal with this without resorting to legal action. We have had an independent inspection which condemned the gas fitting, now refitted and safe. Other issues, of which there  are many remain unresolved. I am certain we have enough evidence to close the company down, I'm not sure that would be a good thing to do but equally they are flouting the law and treating their customers with distain. 

Just a thought - If this is a NEW build boat it will be being built to the RCD requirements (this covers all sorts of things from Gas to electricity to stability etc).

Trading standards are responsible for ensuring compliance with the standards and there are examples of them taking companies (boat builders) to court for non-compliance, on even such small things as wrong glass in the windows, incorrect fire extinguishers etc.

 

They maybe able to 'take the risks' (costs) of going to court and being 'bigger' they may stand more chance.

 

Here is the 1st example that popped up on a Gooogle search

 

https://www.boatingbusiness.com/news101/industry-news/narrowboat_builder_fined_for_rcd_offences

 

https://www.boatingbusiness.com/news101/industry-news/watch_out_-_theres_a_trading_standards_officer_about

 

Hughes admitted to failing to use safety glass in the windows of two doors; that the solid fuel stove had not been bolted to the floor and that he had altered the provision for reboarding without updating his technical documentation.

The court found him guilty on other counts:

. The marine engineer had fitted a propshaft water lubrication intake without a shut-off cock in what Hughes believed was a standard installation to the sterngear manufacturer's specification.

. A grommet had not been fitted to a wire passing through the steel topsides to a light, risking short circuit.

. Gas bottles were not secured.

. The galley door could impact on the gas pipe leading to the cooker risking gas leaks.

. The fuel tank maker hadn't labelled the tanks with capacity information.

. The technical documentation stated that 15,000sq mm of low-level ventilation would "normally" be fitted, but Hughes had provided the 12,500 sq mm required by this particular gas installation.

The magistrates accepted that the breaches were at the lower end of the scale, but that the regulations are in place to ensure the safety of boat users - the bench had a serious concern at the lack of a quality check system. Billy Hughes is now a criminal with a fine amounting to £600.

However the outcome was insufficient for the London solicitor to pursue him for the bigger claim for compensation, which Hughes settled out of court with his customer.

The whole business ultimately put Deeside Narrowboats some £30,000 out of pocket and his customer £10,000. And Hughes is buying the boat back as he offered in the first instance.

The expense and the hours lost in court and in arguments over two years is a lot for a start-up firm to cope with in its early years of trading - many would go out of business.

Billy's case is not the first.

Trading standards officers in the surrounding NW area have brought several cases against other narrowboat builders.

In most cases, the builders have been found guilty of infringements. Lots of detailed technical charges have been brought, unproven in court, and the TSOs left with big court costs on their count.

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Have you considered letting Trading Standards take the risk if the boat did comply with the RCD certification

Great minds think alike !!

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28 minutes ago, Sue said:

  I did ask Jotun if they would come and inspect the boat but they refused to do so saying that there was nothing wrong with their paint.  They supply all the paint to Collingwood. 

 

Well you can understand that. I'm sure they sell far more paint to Collinwood than they do to any individual boat owner.

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We have had a retest for the safety certificate, failed on one major, gas fitting, and a long list of minor. Basically it's faults fall into 3 categories, the serious safety, the missing items, the minor niggles / imperfections.

We are giving the company the opportunity to deal with this within the next two weeks, so I will say no more for now. 

Any recommendations for a legal firm to represent us should we need it would be appreciated. 

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24 minutes ago, DTrip said:

We have had a retest for the safety certificate, failed on one major, gas fitting, and a long list of minor. Basically it's faults fall into 3 categories, the serious safety, the missing items, the minor niggles / imperfections.

We are giving the company the opportunity to deal with this within the next two weeks, so I will say no more for now. 

Any recommendations for a legal firm to represent us should we need it would be appreciated. 

Have you warned the builder that if they don’t fix the serious defects (by which I mean non compliance to the regs as this is a new build and so must comply) then you will pass the details to trading standards?  The threat of trading standards involvement may be enough to get them to resolve the issues.

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