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Lincolnshire Police. What3words


Clodi

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12 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

An article in the Times yesterday ,..... 

 

The head of mountain rescue volunteers in the Lake District has told hikers not to rely on What3words, a mapping app used by more than eight out of ten emergency services and the AA.

The app has divided the world into 3m squares and given each one a unique three-word address that can be given to rescuers to help find people in trouble. It is used by Cumbria police, which has called it a brilliant app and a life-saver.

However, Richard Warren, chairman of the Lake District Search and Mountain Rescue Association, said: “What3words is an ingenious system, but we do not rely on it. The first resort should always be a map and compass to try to navigate your own way out of trouble. Then a call to 999 and stay put.

“A couple of days ago Wasdale [Mountain Rescue] was called to an incident and was 100 metres adrift. That may not sound much but in blizzards it can be crucial. On November 20 Wasdale was called to a group lost on the Scafell range and the What3words location was three or four miles away.”

He said that mishearing or misspelling words tended to cause problems.
 

What3words said that the app was not intended as a replacement for learnt navigation skills, and added: “We are another location tool that can be useful when existing methods may not be known, preferable or practical.

You would do well to give your position within 100 mt by compass bearings and its just as easy to miss hear 8 or 10 numbers

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12 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But using a GPS you can give your location to 15 feet either in Lat/Long or Map Refs.

But if it's your phone GPS if it's out by100m because of signal conditions  then whatever is reading/translating the signal will be out. W3w or os map app. 

As was once heard after Joe wotsits film, the void or something, "should have had a whistle". 

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52 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

But if it's your phone GPS if it's out by100m because of signal conditions  then whatever is reading/translating the signal will be out. W3w or os map app. 

As was once heard after Joe wotsits film, the void or something, "should have had a whistle". 

Sorry I was not clear - I meant a dedicated  GPS unit such as SatMap, Garmin etc which not only uses GPS but WAAS and EGNOS.

Using a phone which relies on a 'phone signal', is not ideal.

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2 hours ago, cougie said:

I think the advantage of grid reference is that you should know where you are. W3W is a more passive way of knowing where you are. Just whip out your phone. 

 

Id prefer to be following my location on a map up in the hills. 

From your comment I'm guessing you haven't ever tried to use w3w.

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I have used it. I think it's a great idea. If you are in contact with rescue services they would be able to double check your location. If they mishear you then it's going to be very obvious. Rather than stuck on a crag in the lakes you'd be somewhere in the Pacific probably. 

 

If you're walking then you really need to be following your location on a map. Less likely to need help this way. As they say - you can navigate your own way out of trouble. 

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8 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

From your comment I'm guessing you haven't ever tried to use w3w.

Unless I have got it entirely wrong, W3W is another way of encoding your position, using three words rather than using two numbers. However, you still need to know were you are, either by visual observation, map reading or electronic - and have some way of translating that data into your location system.

 

I also did think that mobile phones used both GPS and phone signals where available and combined both.

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10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Sorry I was not clear - I meant a dedicated  GPS unit such as SatMap, Garmin etc which not only uses GPS but WAAS and EGNOS.

Using a phone which relies on a 'phone signal', is not ideal.

But you still have to relay that information with no errors to whoever is coming to save you.

 

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16 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Unless I have got it entirely wrong, W3W is another way of encoding your position, using three words rather than using two numbers. However, you still need to know were you are, either by visual observation, map reading or electronic - and have some way of translating that data into your location system.

You are absolutely correct, and the clever way to use w3w is to look at the map that is included in the app and compare it to your surroundings.  This is especially useful if there might be a canal (or a ravine!)  between where your phone GPS guesses you are and where you actually are.

 

I suppose that means w3w should be all of "visual observation, map reading or electronic" but I suspect that most users won't use it that way. :detective:

 

 

 

 

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On 27/12/2019 at 18:28, Scholar Gypsy said:

An article in the Times yesterday ,..... 

 

(snip)

1) “A couple of days ago Wasdale [Mountain Rescue] was called to an incident and was 100 metres adrift. That may not sound much but in blizzards it can be crucial.

2) On November 20 Wasdale was called to a group lost on the Scafell range and the What3words location was three or four miles away.”

3) He said that mishearing or misspelling words tended to cause problems.
 

4) What3words said that the app was not intended as a replacement for learnt navigation skills, and added: “We are another location tool that can be useful when existing methods may not be known, preferable or practical.

1) 100 metres is the accuracy of the usual 6 figure grid reference. A correct What3Words is more accurate, but depends on an accurate position in the first place. Even with GPS, in a blzzard, I would not be confident of my position to 100 metres accuracy. GPS is affected by weather conditions (like all radio signals!)

2) I thnk that is more likely to be a location error than an application error.

3) As does mishearing figures, along with the common transposition errors. If there is contact wit the casualty, an error in a What3Words position is more likely to be corrected before there are feet on the ground. A slightly wrong word usually gives a position on another continent, provided the position exists/

4) Agreed, but if you don't know other location methods, you should not be relying on an electronic device in the first place ! :unsure:

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On 04/02/2020 at 21:26, Up-Side-Down said:

Quite a useful overview of the system here:

 

https://www.constructionmanagermagazine.com/news/skanska-willmott-dixon-and-morgan-sindall-sign-wha/

 

Note the last sentence of para 3: this gives a steer as to how they are intending to monetise the app.

 

When there's an open source, completely free, method like plus codes, I've no idea why companies are buying licences. W3Ws doesn't make you any safe or easier to find than a simple plus code, but it does stand to make the owners a tonne of money once the system is ingrained. 

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On 27/12/2019 at 18:28, Scholar Gypsy said:

An article in the Times yesterday ,..... 

 

The head of mountain rescue volunteers in the Lake District has told hikers not to rely on What3words, a mapping app used by more than eight out of ten emergency services and the AA.

The app has divided the world into 3m squares and given each one a unique three-word address that can be given to rescuers to help find people in trouble. It is used by Cumbria police, which has called it a brilliant app and a life-saver.

However, Richard Warren, chairman of the Lake District Search and Mountain Rescue Association, said: “What3words is an ingenious system, but we do not rely on it. The first resort should always be a map and compass to try to navigate your own way out of trouble. Then a call to 999 and stay put.

“A couple of days ago Wasdale [Mountain Rescue] was called to an incident and was 100 metres adrift. That may not sound much but in blizzards it can be crucial. On November 20 Wasdale was called to a group lost on the Scafell range and the What3words location was three or four miles away.”

He said that mishearing or misspelling words tended to cause problems.
 

What3words said that the app was not intended as a replacement for learnt navigation skills, and added: “We are another location tool that can be useful when existing methods may not be known, preferable or practical.

 

 

The vice-chairman of the Scottish Mountain Rescue teams has asked that What3Words not be used as it is actually slowing down the rescue of people off the mountains with inaccuracies and having to 'translate' them to systems that they know and use (GPS or grid references)

 

However, What3Words’s success has prompted mountain rescuers to warn that it may slow searches in the Scottish hills. They advised people against relying on it. Kevin Mitchell, vice-chairman of Scottish Mountain Rescue, said: “It’s a fantastic idea and for areas of the world where there is not a really good mapping service 

"W3W has its uses in the modern world... But for us as rescue teams perhaps the single most useful piece of information we can have that allows a speedy response is an accurate OS grid reference, the sooner we get that the better."

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The vice-chairman of the Scottish Mountain Rescue teams has asked that What3Words not be used as it is actually slowing down the rescue of people off the mountains with inaccuracies and having to 'translate' them to systems that they know and use (GPS or grid references)

 

However, What3Words’s success has prompted mountain rescuers to warn that it may slow searches in the Scottish hills. They advised people against relying on it. Kevin Mitchell, vice-chairman of Scottish Mountain Rescue, said: “It’s a fantastic idea and for areas of the world where there is not a really good mapping service 

 

"W3W has its uses in the modern world... But for us as rescue teams perhaps the single most useful piece of information we can have that allows a speedy response is an accurate OS grid reference, the sooner we get that the better."

 

The problem is still that people don't know where they are, and that they are relying on their phone GPS in the hills.   If your phone GPS thinks it's the other side of the ravine, it doesn't matter how you give that location to someone else - the GPS might be mistaken and you should check a map to make sure.

 

W3W isn't magic, it's just a naming system for a 10 foot box.  If you are giving the wrong "box" it's irrelevant if you do it by lat/long, OS grid ref or any other way.

 

Reading the lat/long or the grid ref off your phone in the same circumstances will give the same problem to someone trying to find you. 

 

"Don't believe the iPhone and look at the real world occasionally" would help, and not just in the hills!

 

 

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2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

The problem is still that people don't know where they are, and that they are relying on their phone GPS in the hills.   If your phone GPS thinks it's the other side of the ravine, it doesn't matter how you give that location to someone else - the GPS might be mistaken and you should check a map to make sure.

The Lake District MR teams are having a problem with people navigating by apps or google maps and not carrying a map and compass, let alone knowing how to use one.

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2 minutes ago, Jerra said:

The Lake District MR teams are having a problem with people navigating by apps or google maps and not carrying a map and compass, let alone knowing how to use one.

Although, as pointed out on the Peterborough to Boston thread recent;y, there are situations where a compass is not much use either - like sitting in/on a large steel box far from land. 

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1 minute ago, Jerra said:

The Lake District MR teams are having a problem with people navigating by apps or google maps and not carrying a map and compass, let alone knowing how to use one.

 

Yeah but ... the map can be on the phone - OS do a map app.  It's the numpties not being able to read it / align it with landmarks  rather than admiring the little blue dot that's the problem.

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Just now, Mike Todd said:

Although, as pointed out on the Peterborough to Boston thread recent;y, there are situations where a compass is not much use either - like sitting in/on a large steel box far from land. 

Strangely that isn't a problem the Mountain Rescue Teams often have to deal with.   It is many  decades since I did any lumpy water sailing but there was a compass on board that worked.

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Yeah but ... the map can be on the phone - OS do a map app.  It's the numpties not being able to read it / align it with landmarks  rather than admiring the little blue dot that's the problem.

I haven't tried but I suspect things like back bearings on mountains several miles away could be a problem on a phone.

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5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

W3W isn't magic, it's just a naming system for a 10 foot box.  If you are giving the wrong "box" it's irrelevant if you do it by lat/long, OS grid ref or any other way.

 

Reading the lat/long or the grid ref off your phone in the same circumstances will give the same problem to someone trying to find you. 

My 'SatNav' (GPS) works with WAAS & EGNOS 

WAAS uses the US GPS satellites and EGNOS uses the European satellites

 

EGNOS

Consisting of three geostationary satellites and a network of ground stations, EGNOS achieves its aim by transmitting a signal containing information on the reliability and accuracy of the positioning signals sent out by GPS. It allows users in Europe and beyond to determine their position to within 1.5 metres.

EGNOS is a joint project of ESA, the European Commission and Eurocontrol, the European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation. It is Europe’s first activity in the field of Global Navigation Satellite Systems (GNSS) and is a precursor to Galileo, the full global satellite navigation system under development in Europe.

WAAS

Improvements to Using GPS Alone

The WAAS is a type of satellite-based augmentation system (SBAS) that uses widely spaced ground stations to correct small errors in Global Positioning System (GPS) satellite data. The GPS data are vulnerable to timing errors in either a satellite clock or a GPS receiver clock; errors related to imprecisely locating a satellite's position; disturbances from the ionosphere; and delays caused by the lower atmosphere (the troposphere, tropopause, and stratosphere). These errors aren't likely to cause significant problems, but they're the reason that GPS signals on their own aren't accurate enough for use with precision instrument approaches when landing.

The main benefit of the WAAS is a greatly improved accuracy. Traditional GPS is accurate to 15 meters (about 50 feet). WAAS-enabled GPS is accurate to less than 3 meters 95 percent of the time.

 

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