Jump to content

Thoughts on cheap Chinese LiFePOs?


jetzi

Featured Posts

2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

 

For a start, these are new, so it's not fair to compare them to 2nd hand, but also I'm not sure I can get 4x 2nd hand Winstons for 1kGBP. That's going to depend on availability, surely? Or do you know a reliable source of 2nd hand LiFePOs?

 

The source of Tom's, MP's and ours was Jeremy at

Sales@ev-support.co.uk

I would be very surprised if he doesnt have any.  I think you can compare new to 2nd hand as new batteries are set up for use in EVs which is much higher demand than use on a canal bote. A 2nd hand LiFePO4 that is tested to the standard needed for an EV will be more than enough and much cheaper.

 

2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

 

 

These aren't drop-ins by the definition of the Marine How To site. Supposedly they can interface with a more advanced management system. I don't know about the internal structure of these (whether they made up of 4x large 3.2V cells in series, or inside each unit are there 4x internal 3.2V batteries each with numerous small cells in parallel). I have sent a message to ask. My guess would be larger cells, simply because that would be easier to design a BMS for. Apparently the internal BMS balances the battery internally, has a low temperature charge cutoff at 0 degrees and a discharge cutoff between -20 and 60 degrees, and can communicate with an external monitor. I've asked for more details about the BMS.

 

I think you will find they are 'drop ins'. If not then great. The spec sheet shouts drop ins.

 

2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

 

It's good to see these alternatives. They work out a bit more expensive per Ah but I really like the name brand and the individual cells. Thanks for the tip.

 

Would love to consider second hand but I really don't know where to begin looking for them or how to judge the quality of them. Add it to the reading list I guess!!

 

 

If you want new, then the Sinopoly cells look good. Jeremy has supplied 3 of us with decent 2nd hand cells.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/11/2019 at 22:24, Dr Bob said:

The source of Tom's, MP's and ours was Jeremy at

Sales@ev-support.co.uk

For interest, I emailed Jeremy last Monday, and didn't get a reply. I tend to prefer email because I dont like to think I'm disturbing someone with a phone call mid job.

 

Anyway, I called him today and he remembered my email, but has been busy - I can sympathise with that. I think he said he has some "sub standard" Thundersky 160Ah cells, which he thinks have around 140Ah of capacity. He is going to work out a price for me, so I'll see:

 

1) if i get it :) 

2) How much it is for 12 cells

3) How much I want a day trip to Colchester and back, (4hrs 30mins each way) :( 

 

He did a very good sales pitch in terms of talking me out of the valence drop Ins, and brand new from Prague, so i hope he gets back to me, and I hope the price seems fair.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

For interest, I emailed Jeremy last Monday, and didn't get a reply. I tend to prefer email because I dont like to think I'm disturbing someone with a phone call mid job.

 

Anyway, I called him today and he remembered my email, but has been busy - I can sympathise with that. I think he said he has some "sub standard" Thundersky 160Ah cells, which he thinks have around 140Ah of capacity. He is going to work out a price for me, so I'll see:

 

1) if i get it :) 

2) How much it is for 12 cells

3) How much I want a day trip to Colchester and back, (4hrs 30mins each way) :( 

 

He did a very good sales pitch in terms of talking me out of the valence drop Ins, and brand new from Prague, so i hope he gets back to me, and I hope the price seems fair.

 

What is "thundersky"? A brand of cell? 

 

Where are they originating? Why are there so many available?!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 09/11/2019 at 23:05, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Are you sure about the Trojan price? I paid £125 for a 105AH 12v 3 years ago. Checked a couple of weeks ago, £175 for the same thing now. Hell of an increase.

Yes, I'm sure about what I paid only about 8 months ago. Bought them from a golf cart shop online. The price of batteries seems to vary quite a bit depending on the supplier.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

What is "thundersky"? A brand of cell? 

 

Where are they originating? Why are there so many available?!

 

 

It seems that they were the company that became Winston and Sinopoly. Looks like they were the battery of choice in lots of electric vehicles and, when the vehicles life ends, (for whatever reason), the batteries have lots of life left in them - or so it seems.

 

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/11/2019 at 22:24, Dr Bob said:

The source of Tom's, MP's and ours was Jeremy at

Sales@ev-support.co.uk

I would be very surprised if he doesnt have any.  I think you can compare new to 2nd hand as new batteries are set up for use in EVs which is much higher demand than use on a canal bote. A 2nd hand LiFePO4 that is tested to the standard needed for an EV will be more than enough and much cheaper.

Thanks, I've given him a shout to ask what he has.

 

 

On 11/11/2019 at 22:24, Dr Bob said:

I think you will find they are 'drop ins'. If not then great. The spec sheet shouts drop ins.

What's the definition of a drop in? Apparently you can hook them up to an external monitor, which is why I didn't consider them drop ins by the definitions of the Marine How To site.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

For interest, I emailed Jeremy last Monday, and didn't get a reply. I tend to prefer email because I dont like to think I'm disturbing someone with a phone call mid job.

 

Anyway, I called him today and he remembered my email, but has been busy - I can sympathise with that. I think he said he has some "sub standard" Thundersky 160Ah cells, which he thinks have around 140Ah of capacity. He is going to work out a price for me, so I'll see:

 

1) if i get it :) 

2) How much it is for 12 cells

3) How much I want a day trip to Colchester and back, (4hrs 30mins each way) :( 

 

He did a very good sales pitch in terms of talking me out of the valence drop Ins, and brand new from Prague, so i hope he gets back to me, and I hope the price seems fair.

Well done!

I reckon my 160Ahr cells are more like 140Ahrs so I wouldn't worry as long as the price is right.

Ask him to assemble them with metal straps and connectors. .....and to balance them...to save you time. I paid £1000 for 'good' 12 cells. Tom and MP paid 15% less IIRC for cells that wouldn't quite meet the EV discharge rate. You should be able to negotiate from there but other peeps are asking now.

On the negative side, add another hour to the journey!.....but at least you get them.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

For interest, I emailed Jeremy last Monday, and didn't get a reply. I tend to prefer email because I dont like to think I'm disturbing someone with a phone call mid job.

 

Anyway, I called him today and he remembered my email, but has been busy - I can sympathise with that. I think he said he has some "sub standard" Thundersky 160Ah cells, which he thinks have around 140Ah of capacity. He is going to work out a price for me, so I'll see:

 

1) if i get it :) 

2) How much it is for 12 cells

3) How much I want a day trip to Colchester and back, (4hrs 30mins each way) :( 

 

He did a very good sales pitch in terms of talking me out of the valence drop Ins, and brand new from Prague, so i hope he gets back to me, and I hope the price seems fair.

Make sure that the price includes strapping hardware and assembling the cells into two blocks of six cells.

 

MP.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

What's the definition of a drop in? Apparently you can hook them up to an external monitor, which is why I didn't consider them drop ins by the definitions of the Marine How To site.

From what I have read on the MHT site and the Cruiser forum, I would describe them as 12V batteries that can be 'dropped in' in place of a 12V LA. It will contain its own internal balancing system and its own disconnect switch to protect against overcharging or too deep discharge. Most of these are reported to be multi small cell. I dont think that having  an external connection changes this definition. They really do get a bad press, mainly around low quality or low power handling components and the danger of damage to thousands of small solder joints. Peter's Valence batteries seem to be similar but they appear to be top end....I have no experience of these wotsoever.

If you chose to use these cheaper chinese batteries then you would be breaking new ground for this forum but they may be ok. I am happier with bare cells knowing I will go up to 100% 3 or 4 times a year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

From what I have read on the MHT site and the Cruiser forum, I would describe them as 12V batteries that can be 'dropped in' in place of a 12V LA. It will contain its own internal balancing system and its own disconnect switch to protect against overcharging or too deep discharge. Most of these are reported to be multi small cell. I dont think that having  an external connection changes this definition. They really do get a bad press, mainly around low quality or low power handling components and the danger of damage to thousands of small solder joints. Peter's Valence batteries seem to be similar but they appear to be top end....I have no experience of these wotsoever.

If you chose to use these cheaper chinese batteries then you would be breaking new ground for this forum but they may be ok. I am happier with bare cells knowing I will go up to 100% 3 or 4 times a year.

To me drop-ins are LA form factor that promise being able to pull out the LA, drop in the Li, (maybe) change a setting on your charge controller to "Lithium", and hey presto you have all of the advantages of Li with none of the effort.

 

I don't believe any product can make good on this promise.

 

Therefore even if these are meant as "drop-ins", I would not be using them in the manner above - the only difference for me in how I envisage it is that each battery is internally balanced by the BMS. I would still have bank-wide under/over voltage protection, temperature protection, dump loads, and so forth. The seller of these batteries assured me that, connected in parallel, they would "passively balance" between them. I asked him what he meant by that as I don't really understand how that would work.

 

For what it's worth, I've pretty much decided I want individual cells. Part of the exercise for me is the fun and learnings around Lithium technology, assembling the battery and BMS myself.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

To me drop-ins are LA form factor that promise being able to pull out the LA, drop in the Li, (maybe) change a setting on your charge controller to "Lithium", and hey presto you have all of the advantages of Li with none of the effort.

 

I don't believe any product can make good on this promise.

 

Therefore even if these are meant as "drop-ins", I would not be using them in the manner above - the only difference for me in how I envisage it is that each battery is internally balanced by the BMS. I would still have bank-wide under/over voltage protection, temperature protection, dump loads, and so forth. The seller of these batteries assured me that, connected in parallel, they would "passively balance" between them. I asked him what he meant by that as I don't really understand how that would work.

 

For what it's worth, I've pretty much decided I want individual cells. Part of the exercise for me is the fun and learnings around Lithium technology, assembling the battery and BMS myself.

I fully agree with what you are saying and particularly the last sentence. Learning a new technology is exciting especially as very few have done it before and each of our set ups will be unique. We will all learn from each other as we all do our different things. My bote electrical kit loves them too when there is usually 13V feeding them!

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

To me drop-ins are LA form factor that promise being able to pull out the LA, drop in the Li, (maybe) change a setting on your charge controller to "Lithium", and hey presto you have all of the advantages of Li with none of the effort.

 

I don't believe any product can make good on this promise.

 

Therefore even if these are meant as "drop-ins", I would not be using them in the manner above - the only difference for me in how I envisage it is that each battery is internally balanced by the BMS. I would still have bank-wide under/over voltage protection, temperature protection, dump loads, and so forth. The seller of these batteries assured me that, connected in parallel, they would "passively balance" between them. I asked him what he meant by that as I don't really understand how that would work.

 

For what it's worth, I've pretty much decided I want individual cells. Part of the exercise for me is the fun and learnings around Lithium technology, assembling the battery and BMS myself.

If you simply "drop-in" 12V Li batteries (with no other precautions) and these include overvoltage disconnect, you're pretty soon going to have to "drop-in" the cut whatever other equipment self-destructs when the battery disconnects when the alternator is charging and the load dump puts a 100V spike onto your 12V bus...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 09/11/2019 at 22:10, ivan&alice said:

I have an opportunity to buy some discounted but brand new LiFePOs (450 GBP instead of 600 GBP) and I was wondering if anyone had opinions on these units. I still have a lot of research to go but I would need to pull the trigger on these within a week!

 

They are 120Ah, 12V batteries with a similar form factor to LA leisure batteries. They have a built in BMS which keeps them balanced. I'm thinking of paralleling 4 of these to give me 480Ah.

Here is a video of a teardown of mid range battery, in terms of price, so an indication of what may be inside the box:

 

 

 

along with his follow up where he tears down the battery he was sent for his previous youtube review:

 

 

  • Greenie 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So @ivan&alice this thread suggests you are now steering away from your lots of 'solar and LA' option from last month.It would be helpful to me if you could summarise your thought process on how this has happened, and why you are edging towards prismatic cells.Has it been entirely through this forum and the websites it links too, or have you found another source of info?

 

Thankyou.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Here is a video of a teardown of mid range battery, in terms of price, so an indication of what may be inside the box:

 

 

 

along with his follow up where he tears down the battery he was sent for his previous youtube review:

 

 

Yes, the build quality sucks. Surprised they seem to have good cells in there! 

I guess that is why buying cells is a good idea and putting your own BMS on it.

I do quite like this guy!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, rusty69 said:

So @ivan&alice this thread suggests you are now steering away from your lots of 'solar and LA' option from last month.It would be helpful to me if you could summarise your thought process on how this has happened, and why you are edging towards prismatic cells.Has it been entirely through this forum and the websites it links too, or have you found another source of info?

Hey @rusty69 yes you are correct that the more I read the more I'm edging towards Lithium. The "lots of solar and LA" option was a bit of a devils advocate to try to get the real advantages. I've been weighing up LA vs Li for a while now.

 

The primary advantage, for me, is the increased efficiency of generation and not having to get up to 100% ever - not having to run my engine for hours on end, basically.

 

The secondary reason that I want to go down this route is because I don't want to invest my time, money and effort in learning about LAs because I consider it a dying technology - yes it is still on the early side to adopt Li but I'd rather become an expert on the technology of the future than the technology of the past. And I do believe that all of us using batteries on the cut need to be somewhat of an expert in the technology we are each using, if we want to get the best life, value, safety and performance out of our batteries.

 

Remember my situation is different in that I don't have an incumbent electrical system, so it's not a question of replacing an existing set of batteries, the question is what is the best technology when building a new system - and I believe for the above advantages and more (long life, less maintenance, equal or better value over the battery lifetime, improved safety - yes, improved safety). I think it's a very personal, situational choice and there is definitely no one-size-fits-all battery system, Lithium or otherwise, that would suit all boaters.

 

3 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

I guess that is why buying cells is a good idea and putting your own BMS on it.

I do quite like this guy!

Yeah, I'm a little bit in love with him. In fact his videos did more to sway me towards Lithium than pretty much anything else!

Edited by ivan&alice
  • Greenie 1
  • Happy 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/11/2019 at 23:46, Richard10002 said:

For interest, I emailed Jeremy last Monday, and didn't get a reply. I tend to prefer email because I dont like to think I'm disturbing someone with a phone call mid job.

 

Anyway, I called him today and he remembered my email, but has been busy - I can sympathise with that. I think he said he has some "sub standard" Thundersky 160Ah cells, which he thinks have around 140Ah of capacity. He is going to work out a price for me, so I'll see:

 

1) if i get it :) 

2) How much it is for 12 cells

3) How much I want a day trip to Colchester and back, (4hrs 30mins each way) :( 

 

He did a very good sales pitch in terms of talking me out of the valence drop Ins, and brand new from Prague, so i hope he gets back to me, and I hope the price seems fair.

Having failed to respond to my email, he made his sales pitch and promised to provide a price when I called him last week. I've heard nothing. He seemed like a nice guy over the phone and my guess is that he is very busy doing what he does, which seems to be converting cars to electric.

 

I suppose, if I lived round the corner, and could call by, I may have had a better result.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.