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Bubble Tester Question


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OK lets try a less controversial question, based on something raised in a thread now apparently deleted...

The Alde bubble testers, (the only ones I'm aware if in use on canal boats) are rated for 12KW.

The combined power rating of all appliances on a boat can easily exceed this, particularly if you use an instantaneous water heater.

So is this actually an issue if appliances are simultaneously in use at more than 12KW.

 

If so, why do the BSS Office not only allow Bubble Testers, but actually promote them as a good thing, and a useful retrofit to an existing boat gas system.

I have never seen it stated "do not fit a bubble tester if your energy demands could at any point exceed 12KW in total".

Discuss.

 

Edited by alan_fincher
Sopelling and typos
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1 hour ago, system 4-50 said:

I have two fitted for this reason. My examiner said I could have used just one if I added a full-sized bypass for use when not testing. This does of course add some untested joints?

Although all such joints would be in the gas locker, where any leaking gas would be safely vented overboard.

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I removed the bubble tester on Helvetia because the glass failed, emptying a whole bottle of gas into the gas locker. I removed it and replaced it with a manometer test point in the gas line close to the gas boiler. Using it was simple and avoided having to bend double upside down to read it, and every surveyor who examined the boat told me that they preferred a manometer, as it was a far more reliable way to test gas soundness than a bubble tester.

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2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

If so, why do the BSS Office not only allow Bubble Testers, but actually promote them as a good thing, and a useful retrofit to an existing boat gas system.

So their examiners do not have to be "gas safe" registered.

Proper examiners are  "gas safe" registered. 

 

  • Greenie 1
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31 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

I removed the bubble tester on Helvetia because the glass failed, emptying a whole bottle of gas into the gas locker. I removed it and replaced it with a manometer test point in the gas line close to the gas boiler. Using it was simple and avoided having to bend double upside down to read it, and every surveyor who examined the boat told me that they preferred a manometer, as it was a far more reliable way to test gas soundness than a bubble tes.

Yes, I remember you saying this before.

However the "glass " in an Alde leak detector isn't glass of course, it is polycarbonate, and very thick, (also very well shrouded by surrounding metalwork, with not that much of the "glass" visible.

I really can't imagine how it is possible to break one, unless you are letting someone fire live ammunition into the gas locker!

I'm a fan of bubble testers, although fitting one to the current boat hasn't yet made it high enough up for me to add one.

Why?  Because it allows a regular check more or less every time we turn the bottle on.  Flamingo passed it's last BSS with flying colours on a manometer test, but we recently found a gas leak, (by actually smelling the stuff).  With the best will in the world who can honestly say they do their own manometer checks on a regular basis?

Anyway I'm still interested to understand if the 14KW limit on the tester is a real concern or not.  To me there is a large enough hole there when you are not testing, I'm struggling to see it as enough of a constriction to cause low pressure at the appliances.

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1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

Yes, I remember you saying this before.

However the "glass " in an Alde leak detector isn't glass of course, it is polycarbonate, and very thick, (also very well shrouded by surrounding metalwork, with not that much of the "glass" visible.

I really can't imagine how it is possible to break one, unless you are letting someone fire live ammunition into the gas locker!

I'm a fan of bubble testers, although fitting one to the current boat hasn't yet made it high enough up for me to add one.

Why?  Because it allows a regular check more or less every time we turn the bottle on.  Flamingo passed it's last BSS with flying colours on a manometer test, but we recently found a gas leak, (by actually smelling the stuff).  With the best will in the world who can honestly say they do their own manometer checks on a regular basis?

Anyway I'm still interested to understand if the 14KW limit on the tester is a real concern or not.  To me there is a large enough hole there when you are not testing, I'm struggling to see it as enough of a constriction to cause low pressure at the appliances.

THe "glass" on my bubble tester (not an Alde) was also some sort of rigid plastic but was bowl shaped projected below the gas piping. I have no idea why it devleloped a leak but it did.

 

I carried a manometer on the boat and regularly performed tests, but never detected a loss of pressure.

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I work on the basis that if I can come back to Jarrah  after 2 weeks or so and relight the gas water heater without having to purge the pipes all is well on the soundness dept.  Any longer and the inherent permeability of the cooker flexible hose comes onto play.

N

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2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Where you turning the gas bottle OFF during your tests?

 

:giggles:

 

 

That is a trick question, and from recollection the answer is yes, no, yes.  - The gas was turned off before removing the test point plug and connecting the manometer, once connected it was turned on again briefly, and then turned off again, a reading was taken immediatley, and again after five minutes. if there was no discernable drop in the reading, the gas soundness was OK and the manometer was disconnected, the test point plug screwed back and gas turned back on.

 

Have I passed the test?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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3 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

THe "glass" on my bubble tester (not an Alde) was also some sort of rigid plastic but was bowl shaped projected below the gas piping. I have no idea why it devleloped a leak but it did.

 

I carried a manometer on the boat and regularly performed tests, but never detected a loss of pressure.

As I said, I haven't come across any bubble tester that is not the Alde variant.  Provided you fit an Alde, I wouldn't be the least bit concerned that the "glass" could break.  It's not a reason not to have a bubble tester IMO.

Of course having a bubble tester does not take away the possibility of doing a manometer test if you want to.  Why not both?  Bubble tester for a quick regular sanity check that the system is leak free - manometer test point to allow a more detailed test if you really think it is necessary.

But I'm still looking for an answer to y original question...

1 minute ago, David Schweizer said:

That is a trick question, and from recollection the answer is yes, no, yes.  - The gas was turned off before removing the test point plug and connecting the manometer, once connected it was turned on again briefly, and then turned off again, a reading was taken immediatley, and again after five minutes. if there was no discernable drop in the reading, the gas soundness was OK and the manometer was disconnected, the test point plug screwed back and gas turned back on.

 

 

But you then don't know you have a leak proof system, as it may be leaking due  to a cock up you made whilst replacing the plug on the test point.  You would need a bubble tester to be confident you had got the final part right! ?

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1 minute ago, alan_fincher said:

As I said, I haven't come across any bubble tester that is not the Alde variant.  Provided you fit an Alde, I wouldn't be the least bit concerned that the "glass" could break.  It's not a reason not to have a bubble tester IMO.

Of course having a bubble tester does not take away the possibility of doing a manometer test if you want to.  Why not both?  Bubble tester for a quick regular sanity check that the system is leak free - manometer test point to allow a more detailed test if you really think it is necessary.

But I'm still looking for an answer to y original question...

I am struggling to remember the brand of bubble tester we had on Helvetia, but I seem to remember that the manufacturing conpany was taken over by Alde who discontinued it.

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I did the bit below a couple of months ago in our Newsletter. It was done with a lot of input and checking!

Boat Safety Scheme (BSS)

The Gas Aspect - Examiners, Bubble Testers and Manometers

A BSS Examination is a safety check every four years to ensure your boat is being kept in a condition that complies with the BSS requirements (and be aware that, in the intervening period, your boat  must not have any non-compliant changes to any of its systems which are subject to a BSS check). You can find an Examiner from the BSS website - www.boatsafetyscheme.org – which lists Examiners by area and gives full details of the scheme..

HOWEVER, a key element of the BSS Examination - the Gas check (7.12.2) - is critical as to whether your BSS Examiner will be able to issue a ‘pass’ confirmation for your boat. Graham Watts, BSS Support Executive, has been the lead on what follows.

1.       If you are a leisure user (i.e. non-residential and your boat is non-commercial [not a hire boat, not a shop etc.]) any BSS Examiner can complete the safety checks and issue a ‘pass’ because they can check for gas leaks (check 7.12.2) using a manometer.

2.       If you are a residential boater then if your BSS Examiner is not also Gas Safe (LPG boats-competent) registered, the Examiner can only complete check 7.12.2 (and therefore issue the ‘pass’) by either

          a.       observing the tightness test conducted by an attending GSR engineer

          b.       undertaking a gas tightness test using a bubble tester where correctly fitted and correctly located

Less than 30% of BSS Examiners are also GSR so check for an in-date ID card if necessary.

In terms of the (b) option, a bubble tester must be fitted by a GSR engineer** and if the total kW rating of appliances running through the system is greater than 12kW (as in most widebeams), the bubble tester cannot be fitted in-line but needs to be on a by-pass. This can be awkward in the locker and, to complicate matters, they are designed to fit to metric pipework. To add to this, a big part of the GasSafe gas test is the gas pressures of the system which the bubble tester doesn’t show.

Two final points: The BSS does not require you to have a bubble-tester fitted. And, particularly important, if you are a residential boater, consider the sense in having an annual routine gas check.

**Boats used for residential purposes as well as hire boats and floating businesses (such as cafés or shops) all fall within scope of the Gas Safety [Installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR) and as such any LPG 'work' must be undertaken by Gas Safe registered installers.

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7 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

That is a trick question, and from recollection the answer is yes, no, yes.  - The gas was turned off before removing the test point plug and connecting the manometer, once connected it was turned on again briefly, and then turned off again, a reading was taken immediatley, and again after five minutes. if there was no discernable drop in the reading, the gas soundness was OK and the manometer was disconnected, the test point plug screwed back and gas turned back on.

 

Have I passed the test?

 

Probably not. If you turn the cylinder off, connect manometer to test point, turn on to repressurise, then turn off again to test that is completely pointless because you have a “reservoir” of high pressure gas in the hose tail (before the regulator) that stores gas. If there is a slight leak from the pipework, the pressure won’t start to drop for hours until that reservoir of high pressure gas is used up. If you have the reg actually on the cylinder with no hose tails, it isn’t quite as bad, but see below.

 

When you turn something off, how do you know it’s off and not leaking? I  You should therefore do a “let by” test which basically involves turning off the valve, significantly de pressuring the system, then checking that the pressure doesn’t start to increase. Normally this would be done using the gas locker shutoff valve - after the regulator. Then once you are sure the valve isn’t “letting by” you can increase the pressure again, shut off the valve again and check for leaks.

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28 minutes ago, Jo_ said:

I did the bit below a couple of months ago in our Newsletter. It was done with a lot of input and checking!

Boat Safety Scheme (BSS)

The Gas Aspect - Examiners, Bubble Testers and Manometers

A BSS Examination is a safety check every four years to ensure your boat is being kept in a condition that complies with the BSS requirements (and be aware that, in the intervening period, your boat  must not have any non-compliant changes to any of its systems which are subject to a BSS check). You can find an Examiner from the BSS website - www.boatsafetyscheme.org – which lists Examiners by area and gives full details of the scheme..

HOWEVER, a key element of the BSS Examination - the Gas check (7.12.2) - is critical as to whether your BSS Examiner will be able to issue a ‘pass’ confirmation for your boat. Graham Watts, BSS Support Executive, has been the lead on what follows.

1.       If you are a leisure user (i.e. non-residential and your boat is non-commercial [not a hire boat, not a shop etc.]) any BSS Examiner can complete the safety checks and issue a ‘pass’ because they can check for gas leaks (check 7.12.2) using a manometer.

2.       If you are a residential boater then if your BSS Examiner is not also Gas Safe (LPG boats-competent) registered, the Examiner can only complete check 7.12.2 (and therefore issue the ‘pass’) by either

          a.       observing the tightness test conducted by an attending GSR engineer

          b.       undertaking a gas tightness test using a bubble tester where correctly fitted and correctly located

Less than 30% of BSS Examiners are also GSR so check for an in-date ID card if necessary.

In terms of the (b) option, a bubble tester must be fitted by a GSR engineer** and if the total kW rating of appliances running through the system is greater than 12kW (as in most widebeams), the bubble tester cannot be fitted in-line but needs to be on a by-pass. This can be awkward in the locker and, to complicate matters, they are designed to fit to metric pipework. To add to this, a big part of the GasSafe gas test is the gas pressures of the system which the bubble tester doesn’t show.

Two final points: The BSS does not require you to have a bubble-tester fitted. And, particularly important, if you are a residential boater, consider the sense in having an annual routine gas check.

**Boats used for residential purposes as well as hire boats and floating businesses (such as cafés or shops) all fall within scope of the Gas Safety [Installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR) and as such any LPG 'work' must be undertaken by Gas Safe registered installers.

Mostly agreed but I just find the point about residential vs non residential rather pointless. Yes I know what the GSIUR says but it is your last comment about getting the gas check done annually if you are residential. We are not residential but are on the boat maybe 100 days a year. We leave the gas on 24/7. So why is it less appropriate for us to have an annual check than if we lived permanently on the boat? Doesn’t seem logical to me.

 

Oh and also you are misquoting the GSIUR. It does not say that such work has to be undertaken by GS registered people. It says anyone working on gas must be competent. Personally I think that I am competent to unscrew a test point on my own boat and subsequently replace it and check for leaks with spray, residential or not. Much of the rest of GSIUR is about doing it commercially. 

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29 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Mostly agreed but I just find the point about residential vs non residential rather pointless. Yes I know what the GSIUR says but it is your last comment about getting the gas check done annually if you are residential. We are not residential but are on the boat maybe 100 days a year. We leave the gas on 24/7. So why is it less appropriate for us to have an annual check than if we lived permanently on the boat? Doesn’t seem logical to me.

 

Oh and also you are misquoting the GSIUR. It does not say that such work has to be undertaken by GS registered people. It says anyone working on gas must be competent. Personally I think that I am competent to unscrew a test point on my own boat and subsequently replace it and check for leaks with spray, residential or not. Much of the rest of GSIUR is about doing it commercially. 

To clarify, and this is my understanding, if you are working on a residential boat, which comes under GSIUR, and competent and doing it for free it is ok, but if competent and being paid it is not ok.

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12 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

To clarify, and this is my understanding, if you are working on a residential boat, which comes under GSIUR, and competent and doing it for free it is ok, but if competent and being paid it is not ok.

Yes. And of course if you are competent the boat won’t blow up nor poison occupants. If either of those things happens you weren’t actually competent and you are in deep shit!

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This is what the BSS says in their guidance to examiners.

Not saying they have got it correct but presumably this is how they see it.

 

 

 

Carrying out 'work on the gas system of boats used primarily for residential or domestic purposes fall within scope of a piece of  UK legislation known as the Gas Safety [Installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR).

As such, the law demands that anyone contracted to 'work' on the LPG system of a boat in scope must be (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered.

As the definition of 'work' covers the removal and replacement of a screw nipple on a gas test point, the scope of the GSIUR includes carrying out BSS LPG tightness test.

Therefore, on a boat in scope of GSIUR, examiners who are not Gas Safe registered can only complete check 7.12.2 (confirming gas tightness) by either:

  • undertaking a gas tightness test using a bubble tester where fitted and correctly located; or,
  • observing the tightness test conducted by a (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered installer

Does a Bubble Tester do away with the need for a Gas Safe registered engineer testing the gas system on residential boats?

Yes, because any BSS Examiner can check for leaks using a fully functioning and appropriately located bubble tester. It is the case however that there is no BSS requirement for a bubble tester and so fitting one is matter of boat owner choice.

Note that all other types of gas work, such as adding or replacing an appliance, needs to be conducted by a Gas Safe registered engineer with the LPG boat competence listed on his/her identity card.

Is it recommended that boat owners fit a bubble tester?

Yes, fitting a bubble tester in the LPG cylinder locker is strongly recommended because it allows owners to check for leaks themselves and so enjoy piece of mind in between BSS Examinations. It is very important that fitting bubble testers on residential boats (and private leisure boats) is done by a LPG boat-competent Gas Safe registered engineer.

This is because the bubble tester must be correctly located and oriented, and for large volume LPG systems, the engineer may need to install a bypass arrangement to allow gas to flow past the bubble tester when it is not being used.

Are there any other alternatives to allow non Gas Safe registered BSS Examiners to check residential boat gas systems?

Unfortunately there are only two methods that can be used to check for gas leaks on boats (manometer leak check and bubble tester check). The only other alternative is for the non-Gas Safe registered BSS Examiner to observe a manometer leak check conducted by a LPG boat-competent Gas Safe registered engineer.

Note on the BSS Examination for non-private boats - If a vessel is a hire boat, third-party managed share-owned boat, trip boat, rented residential boat, floating business or some other form of commercial or public vessel, the boat will be examined to either the 2017 Hire Boat Requirements or 2002 BSS Standards as stipulated by the navigation authority registering your boat.

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8 hours ago, Jo_ said:

 

In terms of the (b) option, a bubble tester must be fitted by a GSR engineer** and if the total kW rating of appliances running through the system is greater than 12kW (as in most widebeams), the bubble tester cannot be fitted in-line but needs to be on a by-pass. This can be awkward in the locker and, to complicate matters, they are designed to fit to metric pipework. To add to this, a big part of the GasSafe gas test is the gas pressures of the system which the bubble tester doesn’t show.

 

 

Why would most widebeams have a total gas appliance kW rating any more than most narrowboats? What's the beam of the boat got to do with the total kW rating?

 

I have two separate gas systems down each side of my widebeam with two separate regulators and two bubble testers, because when I did the pipe size calculations it was borderline due to the length of the main run and the total kW rating of the appliances. I knew nothing about the kW limitations of Alde bubble testers at the time, but looking at this thread I'm glad I fitted it as I did because each system is well below 12kW.

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14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This is what the BSS says in their guidance to examiners.

Not saying they have got it correct but presumably this is how they see it.

 

 

 

Carrying out 'work on the gas system of boats used primarily for residential or domestic purposes fall within scope of a piece of  UK legislation known as the Gas Safety [Installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR).

As such, the law demands that anyone contracted to 'work' on the LPG system of a boat in scope must be (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered.

As the definition of 'work' covers the removal and replacement of a screw nipple on a gas test point, the scope of the GSIUR includes carrying out BSS LPG tightness test.

Therefore, on a boat in scope of GSIUR, examiners who are not Gas Safe registered can only complete check 7.12.2 (confirming gas tightness) by either:

  • undertaking a gas tightness test using a bubble tester where fitted and correctly located; or,
  • observing the tightness test conducted by a (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered installer

Does a Bubble Tester do away with the need for a Gas Safe registered engineer testing the gas system on residential boats?

Yes, because any BSS Examiner can check for leaks using a fully functioning and appropriately located bubble tester. It is the case however that there is no BSS requirement for a bubble tester and so fitting one is matter of boat owner choice.

Note that all other types of gas work, such as adding or replacing an appliance, needs to be conducted by a Gas Safe registered engineer with the LPG boat competence listed on his/her identity card.

Is it recommended that boat owners fit a bubble tester?

Yes, fitting a bubble tester in the LPG cylinder locker is strongly recommended because it allows owners to check for leaks themselves and so enjoy piece of mind in between BSS Examinations. It is very important that fitting bubble testers on residential boats (and private leisure boats) is done by a LPG boat-competent Gas Safe registered engineer.

This is because the bubble tester must be correctly located and oriented, and for large volume LPG systems, the engineer may need to install a bypass arrangement to allow gas to flow past the bubble tester when it is not being used.

Are there any other alternatives to allow non Gas Safe registered BSS Examiners to check residential boat gas systems?

Unfortunately there are only two methods that can be used to check for gas leaks on boats (manometer leak check and bubble tester check). The only other alternative is for the non-Gas Safe registered BSS Examiner to observe a manometer leak check conducted by a LPG boat-competent Gas Safe registered engineer.

Note on the BSS Examination for non-private boats - If a vessel is a hire boat, third-party managed share-owned boat, trip boat, rented residential boat, floating business or some other form of commercial or public vessel, the boat will be examined to either the 2017 Hire Boat Requirements or 2002 BSS Standards as stipulated by the navigation authority registering your boat.

Yes I think they have it correct. But regarding the first red bit, it is important to consider that it says “contracted to work”. In other words, you are employed to do it/getting paid for it. The GSIUR does specifically require those employed/self employed to be (effectively) gas safe registered. But it does not say that those doing work to their own boats must be GS registered. For them, the only requirement is to be competent. And I would say that undoing and redoing a test point plug then checking for leaks doesn’t require a great deal of competence.

 

The whole thing is a bit of a farce IMO (ie the difference between residential and non residential). I don’t see what difference it makes. We were on the boat permanently for 2 months in the summer, why should that require a lower standard than some other boat where the occupants are there for 2 months but don’t also have a home elsewhere? The law is an ass!

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33 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Much of the rest of GSIUR is about doing it commercially.

 

Whist I agree with all the points you make in posts 16 and 17, this bit is not really the case I don't think. You are right in particular about the reservoir of high pressure gas in the high pressure hose masking a small leak so it needs to be dissipated. This occurs during the 'let by' part of the LPG tightness test. They are constantly tinkering with the times and pressures but broadly speaking, to do a tightness test with a manometer you follow these steps:

 

Let by test:

 

1) Turn the gas OFF at the bottle, light a burner to dissipate the pressure, remove the test point and attach your previously prepared manometer containing water and a blue dye approved for use with gas.

 

2) SLOWLY and carefully turn the gas on, avoiding a rapid rise in pressure which will shoot all the water out of your manometer.

 

3) Note the pressure which should be 37 mBar for propane. Light a gas ring and reduce the pressure to 10 mBar approx, then turn the gas ring OFF. Note the exact pressure you have. 

 

4) Observe the pressure for one minute to ensure it does not rise.

 

This test is to prove the on/off valve is closing fully. If it doesn't close fully, passing gas will affect the result of the following tightness test:

 

 

Tightness test:

 

1) Open the valve to raise the pressure to 37 mB then close it again. Burn off gas to reduce the pressure this time to 20 mB. 

 

2) Wait five minutes for the system temperature to stabilise and observe the pressure, and record the result.

 

3) Wait a further five minutes. This is the actual tightness test. Note the reading on the manometer and compare it with the result recorded in 2). 

 

There should have been no change in pressure for the system to pass the test. 

 

 

A tightness test carried out at 37mB is pretty pointless really, for the reason Nick points out. 

 

 

Getting back to the bit about the GSUIR governing commercial work, yes it does, if work is being carried out for payment or reward then Registration with the body currently charged with administering the register is mandatory, but in addition it requires non-GSR people working on gas for no payment to be competent, and defines the standards to which ANYONE working on gas should comply to demonstrate their competence. 

 

It is arguable that there might be other ways to work on gas 'competently', but complying with GSIUR is a surefire way to convince the court, should you end up there. 

 

 

 

 

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As such, the law demands that anyone contracted to 'work' on the LPG system of a boat in scope must be (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered.

 

I agree, and the key word in the context of our discussion is ‘contracted’ ie providing a paid service.  It is not possible for a BSS examiner to conduct an examination and claim that they were doing a manometer check for free, hence if using a manometer on an in scope boat and using a manometer they must be GSR.
 

added - all ready said above, I need to type faster......

 

 

Edited by Chewbacka
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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

There should have been no change in pressure for the system to pass the test. 

Please sir.I have a question(s),silly as it may be. Obviously a falling pressure indicates a leak.

 

Is no increase in pressure at all permissible?

Would the ambient temperature if increasing not affect the reading?

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