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Johnson F5B raw water pump Thorneycroft adaption


Cabrio

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Dear Sirs, 
 
I was looking for some help with a problem I have,

I have a 1986 1135 connoisseur cruiser with a sliding roof.

It has BMC / Thornycroft 2.5  154 diesel engine, with a Johnson Raw water pump F5B-9002 / 10-24119-2 .

The bearings needed to be changed in the pump so I removed it and found that the pump shaft was in two pieces and joined in the middle and held together by a pin. The shaft needed to be pulled apart so that the bearings could be removed and replaced. One half is the shaft that comes with the pump and the other is an Add On / modification by BMC or Thornycroft spiral / twisted part that when fitted extends into the engine and is driven by moving engine parts( forgive my lack of knowledge for technical terms). 

I could not separate and after applying heat ( probably too much ) and force, managed to turn it slightly then it wouldn't budge. In the end ( after believing it was all part of the pump and I would get a new one with a replacement part) I decided to angle grind apart and see if it did need to be turned apart and was threaded as I thought.

Sadly not, and now I have a problem trying to source a replacement part for the pump. The pump I am fairly confident I can replace but I cannot find the modification /spiral twisted part that was made by BMC/ Thornycroft that needs to be added to the pump crank.

Has anyone had a similar problem and know where to buy the part I need or where I may possibly get it made or even better have an old one hanging around for sale
Any help would be appreciated,

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The 'twisted part" is (was) a drive  gear for something as well as the water pump. By the look of it the other end also drove something.   I suspect this part is common to all BMC 2.5 engines rather tham a marinisation bit because it is too complex a piece of manufacture for a mariniser.   Try to find a Parts Manual to confirm that.  Then head to a scrappy, looking for a near complete engine to break for your spare.

 

Tony B will be along in a minute and he knows these engines pretty well.

 

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That is the actual 'drive' for the pump. These are not belt driven pumps but connect thru into the engine and pick up (something like) the crank shaft for the drive.

 

Mine is similar and bolts in the place where a air compressor would normally fit.

Mine is a "Johnson F7B-9 Flange Mounted Engine Cooling Pump (1" BSPF)" giving 625 litres/min (9900 gal/hr). Cost £450.

 

You can buy them from ASAP either with/without the drive gear.

 

Have a word with them and see if they can identify / supply the bits you need.

 

https://www.asap-supplies.com/pumps/engine-cooling-pumps/flange-mounted-engine-cooling-pumps

 

 

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Tony has no idea - the engine is too new for him.

 

The Skew gear looks suspiciously like the gear that mates with the camshaft to drive the oil pump with the splines at the end of the shaft fitting into the oil pump shaft. This would imply the pump is set at an angle to the engine block sticking out the side. The only other thing it could be is a gear that fits a skew on the camshaft that drove a mechanical rev counter.

 

I agree with Bee - black cab specialist or maybe a Nuffield tractor specialist.

 

One thing it is NOT is a BMC 2.2 one because they drove direct from an adaptor in/on the injector pump drive gear and it stuck directly out of the front of the engine timing cover.

 

If those small splines on the end of piece with what looks like a skew gear on it have a master spline that you can not see then it almost certainly fits onto the back of the injector pump drive gear but what the skew gear is for I have no idea unless it is to drive a mechanical rev counter. If so I still suspect a tractor part and the pump will be stuch straight out of the timing cover.

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14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

If those small splines on the end of piece with what looks like a skew gear on it have a master spline that you can not see then it almost certainly fits onto the back of the injector pump drive gear but what the skew gear is for I have no idea unless it is to drive a mechanical rev counter. If so I still suspect a tractor part and the pump will be stuch straight out of the timing cover.

The splines (in the picture of the pump) look like 'PTO' take off splines but smaller with about 12-14 around the diameter - I think you may have it with the possibility that it slides into the Rev counter drive.

 

The OPs pump certainly matches that shown by ASAP as being for a BMC 2.2 / 2.5

 

 

Jabsco 3270-241 Flexible Impeller Pump

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The splines (in the picture of the pump) look like 'PTO' take off splines but smaller with about 12-14 around the diameter - I think you may have it with the possibility that it slides into the Rev counter drive.

 

The OPs pump certainly matches that shown by ASAP as being for a BMC 2.2 / 2.5

 

 

Jabsco 3270-241 Flexible Impeller Pump

Yes but I understand that he needs the extension shaft and just bearings and I would add the seals, not the whole pump.

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3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Yes but I understand that he needs the extension shaft and just bearings and I would add the seals, not the whole pump.

He does say he is looking to replace the pump

 

16 hours ago, Cabrio said:
I decided to angle grind apart and see if it did need to be turned apart and was threaded as I thought.

Sadly not, and now I have a problem trying to source a replacement part for the pump. The pump I am fairly confident I can replace but I cannot find the modification /spiral twisted part that was made by BMC/ Thornycroft that needs to be added to the pump crank.

The splined shaft that fits into the engine is complete and still includes the joining pin hole'

 

 

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It would appear to me to be the 'insides of the pump' drive that he has cut up which I would suggest would not be available from a Taxi parts supplier.

They may be available from the Pump manufacturer (Johnson) or it can all be purchased from ASAPO as a complete 'plug & play' pump.

 

I managed to pick up a spare complete pump & drive for mine from Ebay, so that's another possibility.

 

 

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Apologies for the late reply as have lots going on at the moment.

Thanks to all who have replied and some of the suggestions have been very helpful. Instead of making individual reply's I shall make one big reply to bring this topic to date,

Firstly I still don't have the part.

Secondly it has many people who have been extremely helpful  by the way, scratching their heads.

Bugger out of time Shall have to do this later,

Ps The part I am after is called a COUPLING SHAFT AND THE PART NUMBER IS 54007693 in the Thornycroft manual.

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Right, I am back again.

Thanks again for all suggestions and efforts.

Before I came on here I had tried all the obvious places including ASAP and that is why I approached all the wise old heads on this forum.

I have tried all other suggestions that have been put forward that I hadnt thought of myself and still no results. It is definitely not a part I shall be buying of any shelf.

I spoke with a marine engine rebuilder in who was breaking a bmc engine and he was confident he had the pump attachment but when he saw the photos of the 'coupling drive' he said he'd never even seen one.

He was extremely helpful though and couldn't have tried harder to help. So, as of now only one person has said that they have ever seen one.

A gentleman who works at one of the many boatyards I emailed recognised it and was going to rummage his garage over the weekend and see what turns up.

There is another guy from a classic car specialist who was confident it was from a Nuffield tractor engine circa 1960's. I have already been in touch with the classic tractor parts supplier and no luck there either but he wanted a few days to see if he could come up with any suggestions.

It is definitely an engine part, the spigot  (small end) inserts 2.5 inches into the engine and engages with something that makes it turn. The wider (end that I cut a piece out of) more than probably drives the taco or something similar and the pump shaft was slid into it and secured with the roll pin and while all the turning was going on the impeller span and pushed water around the engine.

Now, because there are no really heavy forces involved and the holes for the roll pin are still on the shaft, would I be mad in thinking that if I filed off any sharp edges and greased it well, would I get away with just putting it all back together ( including the new bearings that started this whole process) and running it like that. Or I could get someone to weld the small squares I cut out back in place and file very carefully, all back to shape and then run it.Because this thing seems rare and I am struggling.

I have emailed the Thornycroft website but had no reply as of yet.

I think my best bet is to keep looking for an engine that is being scrapped and yes I have tried Boatscrapyards etc.

I am also going visit a specialist engineer who seems confident he can make it but assured me in no uncertain terms it was not going to be cheap.

I have attached some diagrams that show the 'coupling shaft'  part number 17 on plate TK.

In the diagram of an engine block it is located 4th description from the bottom on the right hand side, and listed as an auxiliary drive which is very similar to the set up I have.

Anyway thanks all, and I shall keep you posted as to the outcome. But please remember if you see an old BMC engine block in the bramble somewhere, call me as I might need a bit off it :-)

 

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The BMC 2.x are four cylinder units. Plate TK shows a six cylinder unit and the rocker cover is unlike any BMC cover I have seen. Either the Thornycroft 154 in not based on a BMC 2.x or the images are wrong. I don't know which.

 

The drive on your pump seems to have a skew gear on it but seems to be driven from the timing gear that also drives the injector pump. The illustration seems to show the drive is via a skew gear with no splined drive added to the skew gear.

 

I think the BMC 2.5 will have a mechanical DPA pump on it but the illustration shows an inline pump.

 

I am not sure how far this get us but perhaps you could post some photos of your engine so we can try to positively identify it.

 

If it is not too hard I would exect Richard (RWLP here) of Primrose Engineering or any other competent machine shop to be able ŧo turn the remains of the cut skew gear off your shaft and the make a sleeve and secure it onto the shaft so you can fit it to the pump drive. This presupposes the skew gear on that shaft is not driving anything o rbeing driven in your engine - I don't think it will be unless you have a mechanical rev counter. fitted.

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On 06/11/2019 at 21:19, ditchcrawler said:

I think its a distributor drive from a petrol engine Image result for bmc distributor drive"

That doesn't look like his part :

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Cabrio said:

Thanks again for all suggestions and efforts.

Have you spoken to ASAP about the 'complete pump & Drive' that I linked to ? (Maybe they can even point you towards sourcing the drive shaft separately ?)

This pump is a direct 'plug & play' and will go straight into your BMC.

A bit 'costly' but it gets you moving again and no need to worry about replacing the bearings or, 'welded up' bits breaking off.

 

https://www.asap-supplies.com/3270-241-jabsco-pump

 

Fits the Thorneycroft 154 (which you seem to think it is) and the BMC 2.2 / 2,5

 

Jabsco 3270-241 Flexible Impeller Pump

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That doesn't look like his part :

 

 

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Have you spoken to ASAP about the 'complete pump & Drive' that I linked to ? (Maybe they can even point you towards sourcing the drive shaft separately ?)

This pump is a direct 'plug & play' and will go straight into your BMC.

A bit 'costly' but it gets you moving again and no need to worry about replacing the bearings or, 'welded up' bits breaking off.

 

https://www.asap-supplies.com/pumps/engine-cooling-pumps/flange-mounted-engine-cooling-pumps

I am sure the pump you linked to is correct but the OP's drive seems to be via and extension shaft between the injector pump drive gear and the splined pump drive. None of the pumps you refer to seem to have such and extension shaft. It is the extension shaft that the OP needs because he cut the original one to get it off the pump. Without that he can't actually drive a new pump.

 

Many such pumps are fitted with a drive (usually a gear) buy Jabsco/Johnson that is specific to the engine manufacturer and as the 2.5 (if that is what it is) is so old I doubt the extension drive is still available.

 

Edited to add:- Lancing Marine seem to offer the pump plus drive on Boats and Outboards and you have to specify 2.2 or 2.5 but there seems to no illustration so I have no idea if it would suit or if it is still available.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Many such pumps are fitted with a drive (usually a gear) buy Jabsco/Johnson that is specific to the engine manufacturer and as the 2.5 (if that is what it is) is so old I doubt the extension drive is still available.

Maybe I've missed the 'point'. Are you suggesting that there should be a 'female PTO' to 'engine drive' shaft that connects onto the Male PTO on the pump ?

 

I cannot see where the OP has such a 'female PTO' - maybe that there has been a mod with the PTO splines cut off, and the slotted joint added.

 

Jabsco 3270-241 Flexible Impeller Pump

 

 

34 minutes ago, Cabrio said:

Right, I am back again.

 

Have you any pictures of the pump assembled (before you started cutting it up) ?

 

Did the parts shown ALL fit inside the pump housing, with just a 'drive' sticking out ?, or, was there a 'long' extension sticking out ?

Which end was sticking out (the splined - PTO, or the 'small' end) I'm guessing that the splined end has the impellor fitted over it.

 

 

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Yes, look at the lower photo. The drive splines for the impeller are on the right. Moving to the left there are the bearings, then a hollow skew gear into which the pump shaft fits and is driven and secured by a cross pin. The skew gear is part of a drive shaft that has splines that look suspiciously like they fit into the timing gear splines that drive the injector pump at the extreme left. It is the shaft with the splines and skew gear that is the part the OP is having difficulty getting, not the pump or pump parts

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But if I understand things correctly, the skew gear part isn't actually used to drive anything in this instance. Which suggests it is a part with a number of possible functions (driving other peripherals). So probably should be available from other sources as suggested previously.

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1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

It is the shaft with the splines and skew gear that is the part the OP is having difficulty getting,

I believe that is part of the pump and sits inside the 'bell housing' in the LH section of the pump housing. Mine is the same (but a Ford engine)

It may be a part that previously had an alternative use and the skew-gear is now redundant and the two pieces are just jointed.

I'm suggesting that the 'new' complete pump obviates the need for that 'skew-geared' piece

 

I'm suggesting that the 'short splines' on the shaft stick out of the LH side of the pump housing and (on the new pump) are equivalent to the splines on that.

 

ASAP do state that it is designed to fit the OPs engine.

 

 

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1 minute ago, David Mack said:

But if I understand things correctly, the skew gear part isn't actually used to drive anything in this instance. Which suggests it is a part with a number of possible functions (driving other peripherals). So probably should be available from other sources as suggested previously.

I agree but unless one can find a parts list for the engine showing that part getting a part number may be impossible. As I said I think it's probably a BMC part but if its an automotive, industrial, or tractor part I have no idea. It could be a marine part even.

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I believe that is part of the pump and sits inside the 'bell housing' in the LH section of the pump housing. Mine is the same (but a Ford engine)

It may be a part that previously had an alternative use and the skew-gear is now redundant and the two pieces are just jointed.

I'm suggesting that the 'new' complete pump obviates the need for that 'skew-geared' piece

 

I'm suggesting that the 'short splines' on the shaft stick out of the LH side of the pump housing and (on the new pump) are equivalent to the splines on that.

 

ASAP do state that it is designed to fit the OPs engine.

 

Compare the length of the splined part on the new pump and the length of the skew gear part. Unless there is an extra housing carrying the pump that can be removed I don't see how the new pump splines are long enough.

 

 

To the OP. I agree item 17 on the first diagram may be the part but the number given looks nothing like a BMC part number. I would expect one or two numbers then a letter and then up to four numbers in this format 13H1234. If ASAP can supply a pump with a suitably large mounting flange then  you could do away with the housing that holds the revcounter take off gear and maybe the new pump will, as Alan says, fit into the drive gear in the engine.

 

I think the pump is bolted to the cast aluminium timing cover, not the bell housing but that has no importance at present.

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3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Compare the length of the splined part on the new pump and the length of the skew gear part. Unless there is an extra housing carrying the pump that can be removed I don't see how the new pump splines are long enough.

Its all guesswork, supposition and 'internet diagnosis' without knowing what it looked like previously (assembled) and where it was fitted.

 

I'm not sure what else can be suggested.

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