Nav lights, Mast or sides?

[David Mack]

34 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Good to see that CaRT still have the regulations in place for Tom Puddings!

 

Jen

Its pretty clear the rules were written around the commercial operations taking place at the time. For example wide boats towing have to display 2 white lights, one above the other, but narrow boats don't. So motor and butty pairs can operate with a single headlamp, as they have always done.

[Ray T]

2 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

Looks pretty but it would be completely useless at any distance more than a few metres, as the red and green lights are so close together. And at the distances you COULD see each light distinctly, you could tell if the boat's coming or going anyway since it would be so close! 

 

This is why the lights need to be fitted to the sides of a boat.....just like turn signals need to be fitted to the side of a car, not the middle..... 

When I sailed offshore the red / green bi colour navigation lights were more often than not mounted on the pulpit of the yacht. They were side by side, never an issue at sea and I sailed extensively at night, never had a boat run into ours or vise versa. Managed to avoid being hit any ocean going merchant ships in the mid Channel shipping lanes too. Also the masthead sailing light had a tricolour light, again the lights were side by side.

Even a little light like this is visible for a couple of miles or so.

 

Why should the lights on the illustration I showed be any different? Side by side lights are good enough for a legal requirement at sea. 

Also the height on the illustration would be similar to many yachts.

 

I am not talking about the white masthead light in this example. Incidentally this should be a minimum if 1 meter above the side lights

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Ray T

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Ray T said:

When I sailed offshore the red / green bi colour navigation lights were more often than not mounted on the pulpit of the yacht. They were side by side, never an issue at sea and I sailed extensively at night, never had a boat run into ours or vise versa. Managed to avoid being hit any ocean going merchant ships in the mid Channel shipping lanes too. Also the masthead sailing light had a tricolour light, again the lights were side by side.

Even a little light like this is visible for a couple of miles or so.

 

Why should the lights on the illustration I showed be any different? Side by side lights are good enough for a legal requirement at sea. 

Also the height on the illustration would be similar to many yachts.

 

I am not talking about the white masthead light in this example. 

 

 

Did you know that Nav lights for sail boats are different to motorboats ?

 

 

[Ray T]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Did you know that Nav lights for sail boats are different to motorboats ?

 

 

Yes, I did manage to obtain my Yachmaster Offshore Certificate of Competence.  

 One could argue a yacht under power is a motorised boat. On a few occasions we motored to places when there was no wind. We always had the main hoisted to increase visibility of our boat and to dampen any rolling, hopefully.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Ray T

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Ray T said:

Yes! One could argue a yacht under power is a motorised boat.

 

And during the day would display the 'motoring cone'.

 

Motorboat NAV lights do not meet the specifications for Sailing boat NAV lights (very different light angles)

[blackrose]

8 hours ago, haggis said:

While not fitting nav lights to the sides of a narrow boat may save them being hit by trees etc, lights not on the extremities can cause confusion to oncoming boats. Don't ask how I know this ?

Haggis

 

I think this is a misunderstanding of how navigation lights are supposed to work - they're not intended to mark out the extremities of the boat, they're simply meant to show the direction in which the craft is travelling. It's quite common that a boat with port/starboard nav lights, plus a stern light can only be seen by one of those lights from many external positions.

 

 

Combination nav lights or nav lights on a mast should be compliant if they are the correct size, but we need to be sensible here. Most builders don't fit boats with COLREG compliant nav lights because nav lights for boats of over 12m long would be impractical on most narrow boats. Most of us aren't going out to sea, we just need nav lights to be seen at night or conditions of poor visibility on rivers. If you can fit fully compliant nav lights on your boat then great, go for it, but don't forget your COLREG complaint radar reflectors!

Edited October 31, 2019 by blackrose

[Scholar Gypsy]

Mine are on a short mast on the roof. The vertical separation is not quite enough, I know.   White on top, red/green combined unit below.

These are the 20m LED variety from force4.co.uk, and were significantly brighter than the lights on most of the other boats in this particular convoy (up the tidal Nene, arriving Wisbech at 2300 in the proper dark), which were the up to 12m size.

The matching stern light hangs over the stern doors.

 

 

[Ray T]

13 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

Mine are on a short mast on the roof. The vertical separation is not quite enough, I know.   White on top, red/green combined unit below.

 

It would need more wiring but could you not mount your "steaming light" / mast light on the flag pole?

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Ages ago I experimented with some magnetic navigation lights. Sticking one on either side of the cabin at the back. 

 

I soon gave up the idea realising there was absolutely no reason why I needed them. 

 

But, if they are needed, why not have magnetic lights (assuming the cabin is steel) that fasten on only when needed?  Each light powered with a battery so no wires required. 

[David Mack]

35 minutes ago, Goliath said:

 

But, if they are needed, why not have magnetic lights (assuming the cabin is steel) that fasten on only when needed?  Each light powered with a battery so no wires required. 

 

A bit vulnerable to loss if in contact with a tree branch.

[Scholar Gypsy]

58 minutes ago, Ray T said:

It would need more wiring but could you not mount your "steaming light" / mast light on the flag pole?

Yes, I have been wondering about that. (And I do have a 12V extension lead ready to use!). 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

A bit vulnerable to loss if in contact with a tree branch.

Cheap enough to carry spares. 

?

 

 

 

[LadyG]

I have two lifebouy lights, old style, I would like to convert them to LED, to match the super brightness of my new nav lights, one would be  used as a masthead light if necessary .

 How do I convert them, or are the old batteries still available, I can't recal if they were flashing/fixed

[WotEver]

21 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I have two lifebouy lights, old style, I would like to convert them to LED, to match the super brightness of my new nav lights, one would be  used as a masthead light if necessary .

 How do I convert them, or are the old batteries still available, I can't recal if they were flashing/fixed

Pictures, so we know what you’re talking about?

[Detling]

Note earlier comment about LED lights generally not being compliant. But I don't know who would test them.  In general the issue of lights only comes to be a problem in courts, where your lack of correct lights has resulted in a accident costing loads of money or deaths. That really is the on!y time anyone will question it. Think of the Marchioness disaster some years ago, there was a lot of discussion about lights then.

[OldGoat]

9 minutes ago, Detling said:

Note earlier comment about LED lights generally not being compliant. But I don't know who would test them.  In general the issue of lights only comes to be a problem in courts, where your lack of correct lights has resulted in a accident costing loads of money or deaths. That really is the on!y time anyone will question it. Think of the Marchioness disaster some years ago, there was a lot of discussion about lights then.

And that was on a tidal waterway - none of those near Nuneaton, methinks?

[Chewbacka]

4 hours ago, LadyG said:

I have two lifebouy lights, old style, I would like to convert them to LED, to match the super brightness of my new nav lights, one would be  used as a masthead light if necessary .

 How do I convert them, or are the old batteries still available, I can't recal if they were flashing/fixed

Navigation lights (if working to the regs) have a tight tolerance on the spread of light, whereas a lifebouy light probably doesn’t and if it does will be completely different.  Strictly speaking even swapping a filament bulb with led invalidates the navigation lamp approval as the led will almost certainly change the beam angle.  But if using as a simple all round light rather than a forward or backwards light then it probably doesn’t matter.

[LadyG]

Sorry, thee are floating orange lamps with a mercury switch, but I just want them as lights all round, occasional use, often at night for outdoor lighting when moored up, or  occasionally masthead all round steaming light in poor vis on a river

Essentially emergency lighting, I appreciate non compliance, but as a single hander, I prefer to put lights on when I start on anything 'adventurous', I can't faff about when underway.

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by LadyG

[WotEver]

5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I have two lifebouy lights, old style, I would like to convert them to LED, to match the super brightness of my new nav lights, one would be  used as a masthead light if necessary .

 How do I convert them, or are the old batteries still available, I can't recal if they were flashing/fixed

Yeeeess... so you said 7 hours ago...

[LadyG]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sirus-Lifebouy-Self-Igniting-LED-Light/383667066829?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Dcd336ea235d0494baea2a78d273a9956%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D383667066829%26itm%3D383667066829%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Aab369561-d99f-11ea-ad67-74dbd1807496|parentrq%3Acf322ae51730aa65789e5368ffffe21a|iid%3A1

these are  hi tech modern equivalent

Edited August 8, 2020 by LadyG

[PD1964]

By the time you faff about finding bulbs, batteries and the cost involved, it probably would be better just to buy 2x LED lights(garden type) if just for night lighting, I don’t understand why you want them, your on the canal in a narrowboat, seams a bit daft.

Edited August 8, 2020 by PD1964

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Sorry, thee are floating orange lamps with a mercury switch, but I just want them as lights all round, occasional use, often at night for outdoor lighting when moored up, or  occasionally masthead all round steaming light in poor vis on a river

Essentially emergency lighting, I appreciate non compliance, but as a single hander, I prefer to put lights on when I start on anything 'adventurous', I can't faff about when underway.

 

 

3 White lights (in a vertical column) indicates a vessel towing and the total length is over 200 metres.

3 White lights ( one on one side and 2 on the other side) indicates one of a pair of fishing vessels 'pair-trawling'  and the one showing 3 white lights is shooting the nets.

 

Rather than making up your own 'colregs' you'd be better off not having any lights.

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, PD1964 said:

By the time you faff about finding bulbs, batteries and the cost involved, it probably would be better just to buy 2x LED lights(garden type) if just for night lighting, I don’t understand why you want them, your on the canal in a narrowboat, seams a bit daft.

I would use them mostly in winter to light up well deck/stern for access and to show that someone is on board at night. I already have them from salty water days, seems a waste to bin them ...

Edited August 8, 2020 by LadyG

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

3 White lights (in a vertical column) indicates a vessel towing and the total length is over 200 metres.

3 White lights ( one on one side and 2 on the other side) indicates one of a pair of fishing vessels 'pair-trawling'  and the one showing 3 white lights is shooting the nets.

 

Rather than making up your own 'colregs' you'd be better off not having any lights.

 

.... and two red lights vert on a fishing vessel indicate 'nets fast',

.....I am not going to use two all rounds, just saying I have two of these, rather handsome things.

Jo, RYA Yachtmster with bells and whistles.

It's just a vanity project really ..

 

.... but I intend do some of the more adventurous navigations where ColRegs apply, I am not ready for pottering from A to B and back to A, just yet.

As far as I  know there is nothing to say lights should not be 'on' in daylight hours, in a court of law, I can be adamant that another vessel could be in no doubt as to which way I am proceeding.

It is imperative that I am visible at all times, imho.

Unlike the submarinne commander who ripped open the side of DRUM, and suggested the crew keep a lookout for his periscope!

Edited August 8, 2020 by LadyG

[cuthound]

On 31/10/2019 at 12:11, Paul C said:

My boat had "proper" nav lights (which included the white to the rear) - but with a 'separate' switch for the rear white light so that you could turn on the side lights in tunnels without the confusion, if you wanted to. And with the white rear being on its own separate switch, it could also be used as a handy deck light too. It was offset to the side so it would be visible with in normal use with someone at the tiller (semi trad stern design).

 

ETA absolutely no issues with the side lights (mounted on the body) catching on anything, although I guess it would depend on the tumblehome and the way you approach bridges, and maybe if you put them at the top of the sides - put them a little lower and they won't be the extremity which might catch if you did bridges wrong (the bodywork would be the extremity).

 

My boat has the same system, although I managed to take out the starboard navigation light on a protrusion on the wall of a two way tunnel whilst passing another boat.