Nav lights, Mast or sides?

[Clodi]

I'm wondering whether to fit a Folding Stainless Steel Navigation Light Mast rather than the traditional port - starboard white masthead. For one thing it'll save a bit of wire & even those boats which have Nav lights fitted they seldom have a stern light and don't really conform to reg's. The mast in the link for example is only about 18" which fold down flat to the deck. Whilst I don't actually own a mast but do have a set of trad'lights ready to fit I'm sorely tempted to fit one of these. My NB is 57'  any & all opinions very welcome.

[Tony Brooks]

I have had a quick scan of the site and can find no mention of what, if any, standard it complies with. Most narrow boats are long enough to come into the second category in respect of navigation lights but may such boat are fitted with non-compliant lights. Not least because of the difficulty is meeting the "above deck level" required for some lights. Unless you have a GRP cruiser I doubt those come near to being complaint.

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, Clodi said:

I'm wondering whether to fit a Folding Stainless Steel Navigation Light Mast rather than the traditional port - starboard white masthead. For one thing it'll save a bit of wire & even those boats which have Nav lights fitted they seldom have a stern light and don't really conform to reg's. The mast in the link for example is only about 18" which fold down flat to the deck. Whilst I don't actually own a mast but do have a set of trad'lights ready to fit I'm sorely tempted to fit one of these. My NB is 57'  any & all opinions very welcome.

If you are intending to fit Nav lights in accordance to the requirements than it will be worth reading the COLREG instruction for locations and heights etc.

 

Your Port / Starboard lights MUST be fitted to the 'side' of the boat  (see 4:3:3:2)

 

Here is some initial guidance :

 

4.3 Fitting of navigation lights 
 
4.3.1 Safe Access 
 
 4.3.1.1 During the life of a ship access to the lights is necessary for lamp replacement, repairs and inspection.  Surveyors should, at an early stage, bring to the attention of shipbuilders and ship owners the need to provide adequate hand holds, foot rests, hoop rails and positions for securing safety harness lifelines as appropriate. 
 
4.3.2 Vertical sectors 
 
 4.3.2.1 Annex I, Section 10 specifies requirements for vertical sectors of lights ‘as fitted’.  The vertical sectors measured from the top and bottom of the lens should not be obscured by the structure of the ship. The vertical sectors of electric lights, as fitted, with the exception of lights on sailing vessels, should ensure that at least the required intensity is maintained at all angles from 50 above to 50 below the horizontal when measured at even keel. 
 
4.3.3 Horizontal positioning 
MSIS 010; ver 4.0; March 2013                  
 
 4.3.3.1 Requirements for the principal lights are laid down chiefly in Rule 21 and in Annex I, Section 3 of the COLREGs.  For all-round lights the requirement of Section 9(b) mentioned above is also relevant, as are those of Section 4 for direction-indicating lights. Rule 23 requires that a masthead light be carried ‘forward’. This is amplified in the Annex as meaning within a quarter of the ship's length from the stem, where two masthead lights are prescribed;  but in vessels only required to carry a single masthead light it is considered to mean ‘forward of amidships’.   
 
 4.3.3.2 Masthead lights are to be placed ‘over the fore-and-aft centreline’ of the vessel (Rule 21) and this requirement will be satisfied if they are within one-twentieth  of the ship's beam of the exact centreline and both offset identically.  The requirement that sidelights are to be placed ‘at or near the side of the vessel’ (Annex I, Section 3(b)) the term “near the side” is interpreted as being a distance of not more than 10% of the breadth of the vessel inboard from the side, up to a maximum of 1 metre (refer IMO Unified Interpretation, MSC.1/Circ.1260). Where the application of above requirement is impractical (e.g., small ships with superstructure of reduced width) exemption may be given. Care must be taken to ensure that each sidelight is visible between one to three degrees across the fore and aft line through the light.  (See Appendix B, Figure 3). 
 
 4.3.3.3 In order to comply with the 1-mile requirement in 9(b)(ii), the allround lights shall be screened less than 1800. However, as a light source is not a point but has a certain extension, it may be accepted that all-round lights are screened up to 1800. Screening details are to be considered by Classification Societies when carrying out the drawing approval process (refer IMO Unified Interpretation, MSC.1/Circ.1260). 
 
4.3.4 Screening 
 
 4.3.4.1 The COLREGs require that sidelights (except when they form part of a combined light) shall be fitted with in-board screens which must be painted matt black.  No details as to dimensions are laid down and there is no specific requirement for a chock to be fitted.  Such details must therefore be considered by the surveyor in conjunction with the shipbuilder in each particular case, bearing in mind that screens potentially fulfil two purposes: firstly that of preventing undesirable light on board ship, and secondly that of aiding compliance with the horizontal sector requirements.    4.3.4.2 From the above point of view, the extent of screens to be provided must depend on the individual ship and must be decided on a practical basis accordingly;  it may be that in some instances a coat of matt black paint on a small area of the ship's structure in way of the lantern will suffice.  On the other hand, the screening (if any) required to enable the light to shine correctly over the prescribed sector depends on the construction of the light in question, and will therefore be considered in the course of testing.  
MSIS 010; ver 4.0; March 2013                   PAGE 15 
 
Manufacturers may, if they wish, supply details of such screening as they consider necessary when they submit lights for type-approval. 
 
4.3.4.1 The requirements are that: 
 
.1 the full intensity of the light can be seen from right ahead of the light; and 
 
.2 the light can be seen at least 1o  but not more than 3o across the fore and aft line through the light. 
 
4.3.4.2 To achieve this, if cut-off is not provided by the structure of the lantern, the inboard screens should be provided with a suitable chock. Generally, approved lights will be supplied with makers’ instructions relating to the screen and chock dimensions, but when these are not available chocks may be set using the following principles (see also Appendix B). 
 
4.3.4.3 Many side lights are fixed on to doors which swing inboard for ease of access to the lights. It is important that these doors should remain in good condition and properly fitting, to maintain the correct arc of visibility of the light. 
 
4.3.4.4 Subject to requirements of 4.3.2.1 masthead lights need only be screened so as not to dazzle watch keepers on the bridge or fo'c'sle head.  (See Appendix B). 
 
4.3.4.5 Stern lights should not require any screening beyond that incorporated in the construction of the light.

[Tony Brooks]

https://www.waterways.org.uk/boating/navigating_your_boat/vhf/navigation_lights

 

A possibly simpler to understand version of Alan's post.

 

I think the thing linked to is for craft of less than 12 meters.

[Clodi]

I am aware of the regs & I know most narrowboat do not conform and actually don't need to, indeed I cannot recall seeing white stern lights fitted fitted on NBs as standard.

My thinking is by not fitting port & starboard lights on the sides of the superstructure that's 2 less things to snag on lock sides trees etc.

[haggis]

While not fitting nav lights to the sides of a narrow boat may save them being hit by trees etc, lights not on the extremities can cause confusion to oncoming boats. Don't ask how I know this ?

Haggis

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Clodi said:

I am aware of the regs & I know most narrowboat do not conform and actually don't need to, indeed I cannot recall seeing white stern lights fitted fitted on NBs as standard.

My thinking is by not fitting port & starboard lights on the sides of the superstructure that's 2 less things to snag on lock sides trees etc.

If you are not going to bother to fit them in full accordance to the Regs then just fit them where convenient, but, do not be surprised if you 'wander' onto waters where they are required and the authorities find you non-compliant.

 

If you are not going to go onto waters where they are needed then why bother fitting them ?

 

The regs for Waterways controlled by C&RT are :

 

Displaying of Lights and Visual Signals

10. (1) Subject as hereinafter provided, a power-driven vessel (other
than a narrow canal boat) when under way at night shall carry –
(a) On or in front of the foremast, or if a vessel without a foremast
then in the forepart of the vessel, and in either case at a height
above the hull of not less than four feet, a visible white light so
constructed as to show an unbroken light over an arc of the
horizon of twenty points on the compass (225°) so fixed as to
show the light ten points (112½°) on each side of the vessel that
is, from right ahead to two points (22½°) abaft the beam on either
side; and
(b) in addition to the above light, at her stern a visible white light
so constructed as to show an unbroken light over an arc of the
horizon of twelve points of the compass (135°) so fixed as to
show the light six points (67½°) from right astern on each side of
the vessel.
(2) A power-driven vessel, being a narrow canal boat, under way
at night shall display in the forepart of the vessel, where it can
best be seen and at a height above the deck or gunwhale or not
less than one foot, a visible white light.
(3) A power-driven vessel (other than a narrow canal boat) when
towing another vessel at night shall display:-
(a) Two visible white lights in a vertical line one over the other,
not less than three feet apart. Each of these lights shall be of the
same construction and character as the visible white light
prescribed in paragraph (1) (a) of this Bye-law and one of them
shall be carried in the same position as that light; and
(b) at the stern a visible white light of the same construction and
character as that prescribed in paragraph (1)(b) of this Bye-law.
(4) A vessel (other than a narrow canal boat and other than a
compartment boat on the Aire and Calder Navigation, the New
Junction Canal, or the Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation)
being towed at night shall display at her stern a visble white light
similar in all respects to that prescribed in paragraph (1)(b) of this
Bye-law and, if more than one vessel is being towed, a similar
white light shall be displayed at the stern of each vessel of the
tow.
(5) On the Trent Navigation, the Weaver Navigation, the Aire and
Calder Navigation, the New Junction Canal and the Sheffield and
South Yorkshire Navigation (below Doncaster) a power-driven
vessel shall in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraphs (1),
(2), (3) and (4) as the case may be of this Bye-law display:-
(a) On the starboard side a visible green light so constructed as
to show an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of ten points
of the compass (112½°) so fixed as to show the light from right
ahead to two points (22½°) abaft the beam on the starboard side.
(b) On the port side a visible red light so constructed as to show
an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of ten points of the
compass (112½°) so fixed as to show the light from right ahead
to two points (22½°) abaft the beam on the port side.
(6) On the Aire and Calder Navigation, the New Junction Canal
and the Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation:-
(a)(i) Where a composite craft consists of a compartment tug
towing a train of compartment boats there shall be carried on the
said tug three visible white lights in a vertical line one over the
other not less than one foot apart, each of such lights being of the
same construction and character as the visible white light
prescribed in paragraph (1)(a) of this Bye-law and one of them
being carried in the position therein prescribed.
(ii) Every other composite craft shall carry in the forward part of
the leading vessel two visible white lights of the said construction
and character placed horizontally athwartships not less than two
feet above the deck and not less than two feet apart.
(b) The power-driven vessel of every composite craft shall carry
on the starboard side a visible green light and on the port side a
visible red light of the same construction and character as those
prescribed in paragraphs (5)(a) and (5)(b) of this Bye-law.
(c) The last vessel of every composite craft shall carry at the
stern a visible white light similar in every respect to the white light
prescribed in paragraph (1)(b) of this Bye-law.
(7) On the Trent Navigation, the Weaver Navigation, the Aire and
Calder Navigation, the New Junction Canal and the Sheffield and
South Yorkshire Navigation every vessel employed to mark the
position of a wreck or of any other obstruction shall exhibit where
the same may best be seen, by day a green flag and by night two
visible green lights, placed horizontally not less than six feet or
more than twelve feet apart, of such a character as to be capable
of being seen from all directions.
(8) On the Trent Navigation, the Weaver Navigation, the Aire and
Calder Navigation, the New Junction Canal and the Sheffield and
South Yorkshire Navigation every vessel aground in the fairway
or mid-channel and every vessel moored at any place (including
vessels comprised in a composite craft) shall by night display a
visible white light of such a character as to be capable of being
seen from all directions.
(9) Any vessel passing by day or by night through a tunnel
exceeding four hundred and forty yards in length shall display in
the forepart of the vessel a visible white light.
(10) A vessel while actually engaged on work of dredging, piling,
diving, or other works of repair or construction on any canal shall
display –
(a) by day, at right angles to the keel, and in a position visible to
vessels approaching from any direction, on that side of the vessel
on which work is proceeding or on which obstructions may be
present and on which vessels must not pass, a red metal square
of cruciform construction (a side of which measures not less than
eighteen inches) and on that side of the vessel which is clear of
obstruction and on which vessels may pass a white square
similar in construction and size to the said red square and
(b) by night, on the Trent Navigation, the Weaver Navigation, the
Aire and Calder Navigation the New Junction Canal and Sheffield
and South Yorkshire Navigation, three visible lights of such a
character as to be capable of being seen from all directions of
which two shall be white and one shall be red placed not less
than six feet apart in the form of an equilateral triangle with its
base athwartships and its apex uppermost. The uppermost of the
said lights shall be white and the said red light shall be placed at
the end of the base of the said triangle which is nearer to the side
of the vessel on which work is proceeding or on which
obstructions may be present and on which vessels must not
pass.

[Clodi]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

, do not be surprised if you 'wander' onto waters where they are required and the authorities find you non-compliant.

That's exactly what I'm seeking advice on. Bear in mind the vessel is 57' x 6'10" with a 36hp motor is there anywhere on the 'inland waterways', non CRT waters I'm going to encounter a problem?

[OldGoat]

From a practical point o view - and given that 99% of boaters don't even understand sound signals - I can't see much practical point in having proper navigation lights.

 

FWIW I fitted port and starbord lights as far forward and high as I could, a white steaming light on the dog box and (IIRC) a white sternlight on the rear doors - I must check it next time I go down to the boat.

Nobody - including folks who almost got to  sea - has ever commented on them being correct or not.

Just seen your latest post - I'm on the Thames...

Edited October 31, 2019 by OldGoat

[Tony Brooks]

The Thames require navigation lights at night and even a "riding" light when/if at anchor but I doubt it is enforced much. Not sure about the requirements of the Upper and lower Avon, I seem to recall the Trent requires nav lights, especially in the tidal section. Also suspect the Trent will.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Clodi said:

That's exactly what I'm seeking advice on. Bear in mind the vessel is 57' x 6'10" with a 36hp motor is there anywhere on the 'inland waterways', non CRT waters I'm going to encounter a problem?

(Even on some C&RT waters correct Nav lights are required :

 

List in above post)

 

 

If you stray down the Trent (past Gainsborough) then not only will you need Nav lights, but VHF and at least 1 crew (in addition to yourself)

 

The link Tony provided gave a list of Inland waterways where nav lights are required

 

Humber	Thames (PLA and EA sections)
Hull (Humber to Hempholme)	Medway tideway
Ouse (Yorkshire)	Severn tideway
Aire & Calder Navigation (A&CN) *	Bristol Avon tideway and Bristol Floating Harbour
Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigation * (below Doncaster including S&KN and NJC)	Gloucester & Sharpness Canal and R. Severn (Gloucester to Stourport) **
Trent (upstream of Gainsborough) *	Weaver (MSC to Northwich) and Weston Canal *
Trent (downstream of Gainsborough)	Mersey and Manchester Ship Canal
Witham, Welland and Nene tideways	Ribble (sea to Preston) and Douglas (to Tarleton)
Great Ouse tideway and New Bedford River	Clyde (sea to Glasgow Green)
Yare (sea to Norwich)	Crinan Canal
Lowestoft Harbour/Lake Lothing	Caledonian Canal
Orwell and Stour tideways	Tay (sea to Perth)
Colne, Brightlingsea Creek, Blackwater	Forth (sea to Stirling)
Crouch, Roach and Havengore	Tyne (sea to Wylam)
Lee (Thames to Hertford)	Tees (sea to Aislaby)

^{* - narrow canal craft need only show their headlamp and sidelights – but see note on headlights below.
** - narrow canal craft need only show their headlamp and stern light – but see note on headlights below.}

Edited October 31, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Machpoint005]

30 minutes ago, Clodi said:

>> I cannot recall seeing white stern lights fitted fitted on NBs as standard. <<

 

Ours had one. It was a pain in the arse in tunnels, so I got rid.

[Paul C]

My boat had "proper" nav lights (which included the white to the rear) - but with a 'separate' switch for the rear white light so that you could turn on the side lights in tunnels without the confusion, if you wanted to. And with the white rear being on its own separate switch, it could also be used as a handy deck light too. It was offset to the side so it would be visible with in normal use with someone at the tiller (semi trad stern design).

 

ETA absolutely no issues with the side lights (mounted on the body) catching on anything, although I guess it would depend on the tumblehome and the way you approach bridges, and maybe if you put them at the top of the sides - put them a little lower and they won't be the extremity which might catch if you did bridges wrong (the bodywork would be the extremity).

Edited October 31, 2019 by Paul C

[bizzard]

One of those garden stick in the ground solar lights tied to the tiller swan neck make a good stern light,

  Never go to sea at night with a colour blind navigator.

[Bee]

Most narrowboats don't venture on to moving water especially at night or in bad visibility so any port and starboard light is better than none and a decent torch is also useful. I wouldn't worry too much about all the details of seagoing stuff unless you are, well, seagoing. However, if you do spend time on big waterways then get it right and if you do venture on to some of the bigger European waterways then its not just lights its radar reflectors and a whole lot more besides.

[Onewheeler]

When I get around to it I'm going to mount the nav lights currently in the spares box with flying leads and magnets. For the odd occasion when they might be wanted it will be no problem to put them in place temporarily.

[Ray T]

This idea is NOT mine, I found it on CWDF many moons ago.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Ray T

[Kudzucraft]

I realize that on canals most people don't travel at night and it's narrow, so very different than larger bodies of waters.   But  proper lights are very important, especially on a wider body of water like a river.

 

You can tell which direction a boat is aimed by the lights. 

For example if I see the red-green-white light with the white dead center of the other two that tell me it is head dead at me. 

If I see just red and green with no white it could be headed at me or it could be headed off to either side.

If I see just the white, it should be headed away from me.

So the white is important

 

The distance between the white and colored lights is also important.  If they are on top of each other is going be really hard to tell where it is going.

 

You should be able to find or make a simple removable mount for the white. Just stow it until you need it. Many new smaller boats come with there here.

 

I live on a very large lake and we have mainly faster boats, not slow moving narrow boats. I love boating at night but boats without proper lights are a danger to themselves and me!  Most boater are clueless and I have had a couple of scares with idiot with no or improper lights on their boats. So this is a pet peeve of mine so I say just do it right.

 

 

 

 

[Clodi]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think the thing linked to is for craft of less than 12 meters.

It is actually, at just over 17 meters I'm sort of thinking that as there's not much chance of my venturing onto unsuitable waterways in my narrowboat & as the IWA say ; 'Note theat  visibility requirements: many narrow boats over 12m long are fitted with navigation lights that are not legal in this respect, as many boat builders and fitters unfortunately do not seem to know or care about the regulations. ',

I think I'll go ahead and fit the mast. Funny enough I just found a set of battery powered lights I once used on an old wooden Folkboat we did a circumnavigation of the British Isles back in the 70's. They've still got the old (leaky) batteries in, so not really in working order anymore.

[howardang]

3 hours ago, OldGoat said:

From a practical point o view - and given that 99% of boaters don't even understand sound signals - I can't see much practical point in having proper navigation lights.

 

 

In my opinion that is exactly the wrong approach to take - apart from the old adage that ignorance of the Law/Rules is no excuse. Those boaters who are lacking in their understanding should spend a little time improving their knowledge. Among other things, it might make better boaters of them! Their almost seems like an inverted snobbery about the subject which to my mind is silly.

 

Howard

[PeterF]

I spoke to a narrowboater who had just had a new boat built and he had bought a set of magnetic navigation lights to save a bit of money. No idea of the details, just a nugget of info I stored away.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, PeterF said:

I spoke to a narrowboater who had just had a new boat built and he had bought a set of magnetic navigation lights to save a bit of money. No idea of the details, just a nugget of info I stored away.

almost certainly non-compliant.

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

almost certainly non-compliant.

As is changing your 'old' nav lights to LED bulbs.

 

The 'colour' of LED light is not compliant and the 'lumens' variable. The RYA has been working with ISO to generate new Specifications for boats under 24 metres.

 

https://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/news/Pages/LEDnavigationlights-brightnessanddisturbance.aspx

[Paul C]

4 hours ago, Ray T said:

This idea is NOT mine, I found it on CWDF many moons ago.

 

 

Looks pretty but it would be completely useless at any distance more than a few metres, as the red and green lights are so close together. And at the distances you COULD see each light distinctly, you could tell if the boat's coming or going anyway since it would be so close! 

 

This is why the lights need to be fitted to the sides of a boat.....just like turn signals need to be fitted to the side of a car, not the middle..... 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

(6) On the Aire and Calder Navigation, the New Junction Canal
and the Sheffield and South Yorkshire Navigation:-
(a)(i) Where a composite craft consists of a compartment tug
towing a train of compartment boats there shall be carried on the
said tug three visible white lights in a vertical line one over the
other not less than one foot apart, each of such lights being of the
same construction and character as the visible white light
prescribed in paragraph (1)(a) of this Bye-law and one of them
being carried in the position therein prescribed.

Good to see that CaRT still have the regulations in place for Tom Puddings!

 

Jen