Still Lead in the Old Pencil

[cuthound]

Interesting article about the future of lead acid batteries.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2019/10/27/the-lead-acid-batterys-demise-has-been-greatly-exaggerated/amp/

[Dr Bob]

It was a bit biased coming from the lead acid side of the debate. It would be interesting also to see a similar article from the other side! Good read though.

Li's are being knocked as they are not being recycled properly. That is just a function of time and once a sufficient percentage of cars on the road have Li's rather than LAs then the recycling routes will be set up. 

It is interesting that LAs and Lis are the only two options discussed. I would punt at some other technology coming through in the next 5-10 years that would replace both. I am sure there is a breakthrough not far away.

[MoominPapa]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

It was a bit biased coming from the lead acid side of the debate. It would be interesting also to see a similar article from the other side! Good read though.

Li's are being knocked as they are not being recycled properly. That is just a function of time and once a sufficient percentage of cars on the road have Li's rather than LAs then the recycling routes will be set up. 

It's also a function of usage. It's not difficult to see why more car/truck and UPS batteries get recycled than cellphone and laptop batteries. I'm not aware that there's anything to stop Li batteries being recycled. The vast majority of the metallic content is aluminium and copper (and steel in cylindrical cells.)

 

MP.

 

[dmr]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

It was a bit biased coming from the lead acid side of the debate. It would be interesting also to see a similar article from the other side! Good read though.

Li's are being knocked as they are not being recycled properly. That is just a function of time and once a sufficient percentage of cars on the road have Li's rather than LAs then the recycling routes will be set up. 

It is interesting that LAs and Lis are the only two options discussed. I would punt at some other technology coming through in the next 5-10 years that would replace both. I am sure there is a breakthrough not far away.

But despite years and years of intensive research that breakthrough has not occurred, is it possible that a suitable alternative chemistry just does not exist?. Lead acids have been around for so long that there must be something fundamentally optimum about them.

 

I suspect the battery breakthrough is a bit like nuclear fusion, a lot of people working on it and perpetually predicting that the breakthrough is on the horizon. Its like free beer tomorrow.

 

....................Dave

[Machpoint005]

Thanks for posting that link. The recycling problem (lead being relatively easy to re-use) is an important one, and illustrates why "whole life" energy costs have to be considered. For example, when manufacturing and disposal/recycling costs (economic and energy) are taken into account, keeping and using an older ICE vehicle may well be the most energy-efficient path. A fair assessment of battery life on BEVs is part of that bigger picture, especially if the newer battery technology takes so much energy to make, and the materials cannot be recycled effectively.

 

More relevantly to this forum - lead-acid batteries are still the right device for the job in a boating context, and I can't see being supplanted any time soon.

[cuthound]

31 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

It was a bit biased coming from the lead acid side of the debate. It would be interesting also to see a similar article from the other side! Good read though.

Li's are being knocked as they are not being recycled properly. That is just a function of time and once a sufficient percentage of cars on the road have Li's rather than LAs then the recycling routes will be set up. 

It is interesting that LAs and Lis are the only two options discussed. I would punt at some other technology coming through in the next 5-10 years that would replace both. I am sure there is a breakthrough not far away.

 

I think the person being interviewed was very honest, all of his claims regarding Li's are verifiable with a bit of Googling.

 

Li recycling is currently very labour intensive, hence costly, which is why it is currently low.

Edited October 29, 2019 by cuthound
Missing space

[Machpoint005]

6 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I am sure there is a breakthrough not far away.

Might have something to do with hydrogen:

 

linky to 2D hydrogen article

[cuthound]

26 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

Might have something to do with hydrogen:

 

linky to 2D hydrogen article

 

Interesting, particularly as hydrogen can be used to fuel almost unmodified internal combustion engines as well as fuel cells.

[Dr Bob]

25 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

Might have something to do with hydrogen:

 

linky to 2D hydrogen article

BP have been working on fuel cells of all different sorts (to generate H2) for 40 years. Hydrogen is a dangerous gas. I hope we dont go that way!

[cuthound]

25 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

BP have been working on fuel cells of all different sorts (to generate H2) for 40 years. Hydrogen is a dangerous gas. I hope we dont go that way!

 

I think it is inevitable that we eventually will, once a safe way to store it has been developed.

 

Limitless hydrogen from dedicated wind or wave generators, so no need to mine any rare earth metals, lithium or lead, or recycle old batteries.

Edited October 29, 2019 by cuthound
Clarification

[doratheexplorer]

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/graphene-batteries-supercapacitors

[mrsmelly]

5 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

Thanks for posting that link. The recycling problem (lead being relatively easy to re-use) is an important one, and illustrates why "whole life" energy costs have to be considered. For example, when manufacturing and disposal/recycling costs (economic and energy) are taken into account, keeping and using an older ICE vehicle may well be the most energy-efficient path. A fair assessment of battery life on BEVs is part of that bigger picture, especially if the newer battery technology takes so much energy to make, and the materials cannot be recycled effectively.

 

More relevantly to this forum - lead-acid batteries are still the right device for the job in a boating context, and I can't see being supplanted any time soon.

Blimey Ian ya cant say that!! Havnt you been reading the Li battery threads and seen just how cheap and easy they are to install and use ?

[tree monkey]

6 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

It was a bit biased coming from the lead acid side of the debate. It would be interesting also to see a similar article from the other side! Good read though.

Li's are being knocked as they are not being recycled properly. That is just a function of time and once a sufficient percentage of cars on the road have Li's rather than LAs then the recycling routes will be set up. 

It is interesting that LAs and Lis are the only two options discussed. I would punt at some other technology coming through in the next 5-10 years that would replace both. I am sure there is a breakthrough not far away.

Slightly off topic but this is a problem that needs to be addressed, personally I think if a new mass market product is introduced the recycling infrastructure should be in place before it is introduced, not wait until the use becomes universal 

[Dr Bob]

17 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Slightly off topic but this is a problem that needs to be addressed, personally I think if a new mass market product is introduced the recycling infrastructure should be in place before it is introduced, not wait until the use becomes universal 

That will never happen though. As the recyclers are private companies, they will only set up to recycle the Li's once there is enough business to make money. The 'use' will have to come first......unless the government will stump up the cash which is very very unlikely.

You only have to look at the plastic recycling market to see how bad we as a country are at recycling now we cant export to China/far east.

[cuthound]

28 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Slightly off topic but this is a problem that needs to be addressed, personally I think if a new mass market product is introduced the recycling infrastructure should be in place before it is introduced, not wait until the use becomes universal 

 

I once read an article about whole life costs for cars. It concluded that the Land Rover Defender and Jeep Wrangler were the greenest vehicles, because they had relatively few design changes during their long production lives. They included the costs of building, heating and cooling the design studio's necessary to house the designers, as well as the changes to buildings needed to house the production lines and the costs of building and operating the buildings occupied by the supply chain

 

Apparently, if you include all of these costs as well as the more obvious mining, smelting and transport costs for the raw materials, the whole life cost and emissions of actually operating the vehicle are relatively small.

 

Meanwhile we are about to scrap millions of serviceable  vehicles and replace them with EV's, when the best solution would surely be to produce "drop in" electric motor and battery packs into existing vehicles.

Edited October 29, 2019 by cuthound
To remove a letter masquerading as a space

[tree monkey]

Just now, Dr Bob said:

That will never happen though. As the recyclers are private companies, they will only set up to recycle the Li's once there is enough business to make money. The 'use' will have to come first......unless the government will stump up the cash which is very very unlikely.

You only have to look at the plastic recycling market to see how bad we as a country are at recycling now we cant export to China/far east.

It needs to happen and it needs legislation, it won't because govt is too in hoc/scared to upset businesses 

Just now, cuthound said:

 

I once read an article about whole life costs for cars. It concluded that the Land Rover Defender and Jeep Wrangler were the greenest vehicles, because they had relatively few design changes during their long production lives. They included the costs of building, heating and cooling the design studio's necessary to house the designers, as well as the changes to buildings needed to house the production lines and the costs of building and operating the buildings occupied by the supply chain

 

Apparently, if you include all of these costs as well as the more obvious mining, smelting and transport costs for the raw materials, the whole life cost and emissions of actually operating the vehicle are relatively small.

 

Meanwhile we are about to scrap millions of serviceable  vehicles and replace them with EV's, when the best solution would surely be to produce "drop in" electric motor and batterynpackscinto existing vehicles.

It's complicated that's for sure but it needs to be a fundamental part of product design 

[Rob-M]

I read something about aluminium air batteries which seems to imply they are the best thing since sliced bread.

[cuthound]

8 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

I read something about aluminium air batteries which seems to imply they are the best thing since sliced bread.

 

I saw a prototype aluminium air battery demonstrated back in the mid 1980's.

 

They are primary cells, like ac Duracell battery, so must be replaced when discharged  but are virtually 100% recyclable. However if made in standard sizes,  to be widely available and quickly replaceable this need not be a disadvantage

 

They have the highest power density of any known battery technology.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium–air_battery

Edited October 29, 2019 by cuthound
air, not sir

[peterboat]

I did read on clean technica that Li recycling was way higher than the 5% suggested most is done in China and the far east as Bob says. Of course we have bought recycled batteries but they won't be on any stats because as others have said it's a little breaker that broke the EV down 

[Kudzucraft]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

I once read an article about whole life costs for cars. It concluded that the Land Rover Defender and Jeep Wrangler were the greenest vehicles, because they had relatively few design changes during their long production lives.

Glad to know I wasn't the only one! I knew I read that somewhere. Seems that there was even a reference to how bad the Prius was because of the batteries if you looked at the big picture.

 

 

Great reading!

 

There are lots of articles on aluminum ion batters on Google  Just Google aluminum battery and you will see.  Here is one

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a29355459/future-aluminum-batteries/

[Ray T]

Pedant alert pencils contain graphite not lead.   However, in view of the explanation below, I'll let you off. 

 

"As a technique for drawing, the closest predecessor to the pencil was silverpoint until in 1565 (some sources say as early as 1500), a large deposit of graphite was discovered on the approach to Grey Knotts from the hamlet of Seathwaite in Borrowdale parish, Cumbria, England.^[4][5][6][7] This particular deposit of graphite was extremely pure and solid, and it could easily be sawn into sticks. It remains the only large-scale deposit of graphite ever found in this solid form.^[8]Chemistry was in its infancy and the substance was thought to be a form of lead. Consequently, it was called plumbago (Latin for "lead ore").^[9][10] Because the pencil core is still referred to as "lead", or a "lead", many people have the misconception that the graphite in the pencil is lead,^[11] and the black core of pencils is still referred to as lead, even though it never contained the element lead.^{[12][13][14][15][16][17]} The words for pencil in German (bleistift), Irish (peann luaidhe), Arabic (قلم رصاص qalam raṣāṣ), and some other languages literally mean lead pen."

Edited October 29, 2019 by Ray T

[Machpoint005]

4 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Blimey Ian ya cant say that!

 

I have a tendency to say things I shouldn't, Tim. It's the inevitable result of my life's work: looking for the proper balance of cynisism, skepticism and pragmatism!

1 hour ago, Kudzucraft said:

Seems that there was even a reference to how bad the Prius was because of the batteries if you looked at the big picture.

 

Yes - it should always be referred to as the Toyota Pious.

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Machpoint005
cos I can't spell Toyota

[The Welsh Cruiser]

6 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

I once read an article about whole life costs for cars. It concluded that the Land Rover Defender and Jeep Wrangler were the greenest vehicles, because they had relatively few design changes during their long production lives. They included the costs of building, heating and cooling the design studio's necessary to house the designers, as well as the changes to buildings needed to house the production lines and the costs of building and operating the buildings occupied by the supply chain

 

Apparently, if you include all of these costs as well as the more obvious mining, smelting and transport costs for the raw materials, the whole life cost and emissions of actually operating the vehicle are relatively small.

 

Meanwhile we are about to scrap millions of serviceable  vehicles and replace them with EV's, when the best solution would surely be to produce "drop in" electric motor and battery packs into existing vehicles.

I read something a while back that suggested a petrol/ diesel car would need to run for 200,000 miles for the emissions created in doing those miles to match the levels of emissions from the manufacture and disposal of a vehicle. From this we might conclude that the best solution would be, as suggested, to fit electric engines into existing cars. Failing this, the next best thing would be to keep cars that are currently on the road going for as long as possible. The very worst option is to scrap existing cars in favour of new ones, regardless of how the new ones are powered.  

[cuthound]

14 hours ago, peterboat said:

I did read on clean technica that Li recycling was way higher than the 5% suggested most is done in China and the far east as Bob says. Of course we have bought recycled batteries but they won't be on any stats because as others have said it's a little breaker that broke the EV down 

 

My understanding is that whilst over 80% of a Li battery is theoretically possible to recycle, they require a human to dismantle thrm and separate the parts (unlike LA's where the process is fully automated) and this is why recycling rates are so low.

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

My understanding is that whilst over 80% of a Li battery is theoretically possible to recycle, they require a human to dismantle thrm and separate the parts (unlike LA's where the process is fully automated) and this is why recycling rates are so low.

Which is why they all go to China and the far east, that's after being relifed here first,, it's also why they have no idea how much recycling is really carried out